US military spending and the 2nd amendment

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

...  If having your home broken into by violent criminals is really your worry, I'd rate having a house with a back door as a better means of defense than a handgun, personally.  ....

What, I'm supposed to leave my home so that the intruder has a free rein rifling through my stuff?

You'd rather kill someone or get yourself shot over things that would be paid for by insurance anyhow?

I've got stuff that's irreplacable myself (e.g. boxes of photos, or the crystal dish that was a wedding present to my great-grandparents), but nothing I'd value more than my own life.

Certainly, if it came down to a matter of protecting myself or my wife, I'd defend myself up to the point of killing the attacker if necessary, but for the computer or my wife's jewelry?  No way - I'd get everyone out the first chance I get and call the cops from my cell phone.

I'm simply not that noble.... and I take personal responsibility for my own safety.   Running out the back door at sounds of intrusion is not an option.

It's not a matter of nobility, it's a matter of proportionate response - I'm not willing to kill someone or risk my life (since any armed conflict situation does involve significant risk to everyone present) over my television, especially when it'll be paid for by insurance.

If you have the option to remove yourself from danger but don't, you're really just defending your stuff (or possibly some sort of "my home is my castle" ideal), not your life.

My personal opinion is that it's disproportionate to kill someone over material goods, and I believe that if you brandish a weapon at someone, you have to realize that it may end in the death of the person you're brandishing at - this is something I'm not willing to do over "stuff".

It's also my personal opinion that it's disproportionate to risk my own life over "stuff", such as by creating a conflict with a potentially armed burglar.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Growing up in a place with high crime rates, where the likelihood of being robbed, or someone try to break into your house is significant and different laws regarding guns over the years I can say that more guns in the hands of citizens do not reduce crime rates but raise the likelihood of deaths by firearm.

So?  As long as the criminals are the one's dying.... so what?   I don't see the problem, really.

I know that this argument is close to home, but you are assuming something I didn't say. 90% of those deaths were in stupid quarrels because of the availability of a firearm, most of them with drunk people. Very rarely the dead guy was the criminal.

There may be legitimate reasons to have a firearm, but usually there are better, more sensible options as Lambi just pointed out. In the case of Chatty moving money, for instance, it makes more sense to hire a security company to do it, which BTW is insured.

I have nothing against responsible gun owners, but I believe there is something structurally wrong in the States regarding firearms. Most likely it isn't directly the guns themselves (as the classic Switzerland example shows) but it would seem like there is a correlation.

Still, I've started to mellow a bit on gun ownership.  The biggest thing for me has been martial arts - I'm at the point now where I would feel comfortable having a sword in the house (probably mounted over the fireplace, and probably with a lockable Lexan box around it once we have kids).  I've started to think that there's not much inherent difference between a sword in my hands and a firearm in the hands of someone with the proper level of skill and training.

On a side note, I would like to have a sword myself (more for the fun aspect) but I have refrained mostly because I have a preteen boy at home who despite been very responsible may bring friends home.

[Aggie]

  Devil's Advocate moment.

You are in a two-story house, with all bedrooms on the upper story, and you hear what sounds like a home invasion going on downstairs.  I'll assume in these days of cell phones that the call to 911 goes in immediately.  Do you make a break for the back door (potentially having to confront the invader), try to scramble the family down an emergency fire ladder if you have one, yell out your door to alert the invader that you are home, quietly sit tight, what?

If you either yell or quietly sit tight, and you hear footsteps coming up the stairs, what's your next move?  Would you want to have a weapon (sword, gun, baseball bat - your choice) at this point?  Would you alert the intruder to the fact that you had a weapon?


(the point here is that fleeing is not always an option - what's your next option?)

<sub>my answer: I'd prefer to have that shotgun handy (would require a locked gun safe in the closet, but why not?), but I'd start by getting everyone into one room quietly (hide the kids if applicable in the ensuite) and next alert the potential invader to that fact that I'm home, the cops are on the way, and that I'm armed.  Anyone that was not confirmed to be police attempting to get through the door would be getting a headful of dead after that.

An acceptable non-gun alternative for me would be a good two-way intercom between the bedroom and the rest of the house*, and a danged good recording of the sound of a shotgun being cocked.  I'd like to have that regardless of whether there were guns in the house or not.

As a third alternative, it could be fun to plant motion-activated speakers with a recording of a Very Large Dog barking near every door and large ground-floor window.  The technology is getting cheap enough to make this manageable; I think I saw instructions to hack an old MP3 player to replace the chime on one's doorbell, so it could be a good project for a hobbyist.  Then there's always the actual Very Large Dog or reasonable facsimile - you should hear how scary the bark on a Standard Poodle is - even a small dog can be a good deterrent.


*with appropriate measures to prevent accidental engagement - that could be embarrasing to parents and traumatizing to youth.</sub>

[pieces o nine]

...
As a third alternative, it could be fun to plant motion-activated speakers with a recording of a Very Large Dog barking near every door and large ground-floor window.  The technology is getting cheap enough to make this manageable; I think I saw instructions to hack an old MP3 player to replace the chime on one's doorbell, so it could be a good project for a hobbyist.  Then there's always the actual Very Large Dog or reasonable facsimile - you should hear how scary the bark on a Standard Poodle is - even a small dog can be a good deterrent.
...

My favorite photographer in my old state had this type of buzzer,which activated every time the studio door opened. It took me quite by surprise the first time, and even knowing what it was thereafter did not stop the momentary catch of breath at hearing BARK! BARK! BARK! coming from all around me in the foyer...

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

On a side note, I would like to have a sword myself (more for the fun aspect) but I have refrained mostly because I have a preteen boy at home who despite been very responsible may bring friends home.

Yes... I understand the concern.  Hence why if there's ever kids/teenagers hanging around my house, the sword would go in a securely locked container.  I was thinking a Lexan display case so I could still display it, but security would come before showing it off.

Devil's Advocate moment.

You are in a two-story house, with all bedrooms on the upper story, and you hear what sounds like a home invasion going on downstairs.  I'll assume in these days of cell phones that the call to 911 goes in immediately.  Do you make a break for the back door (potentially having to confront the invader), try to scramble the family down an emergency fire ladder if you have one, yell out your door to alert the invader that you are home, quietly sit tight, what?

If you either yell or quietly sit tight, and you hear footsteps coming up the stairs, what's your next move?  Would you want to have a weapon (sword, gun, baseball bat - your choice) at this point?  Would you alert the intruder to the fact that you had a weapon?


(the point here is that fleeing is not always an option - what's your next option?)

Assuming my escape route was cut off or I didn't want to risk checking, my likely course of action would be:

- call the police
- hit the button on the security system (we've got a keypad in the master bedroom) to alert the neighbors, as well as to get the burglar seriously thinking about running away
- grab the bokken from my closet - it's not quite a sword, but can still be a dangerous weapon if you try hard enough
- announce that I'm armed (keeping it vague & generic) and that the police are on their way, and suggest that the burglar think about leaving
- get ready for a fight in case the guy comes upstairs
- if he does come upstairs, take him out or at least beat him back... but stick to defending only the area where my loved ones are, so that he doesn't get the idea that he has to kill me to get out alive.

[Sibling Chatty]

Have friends in Sugar Land that had the all beds upstairs, alarm system, phone to 911, etc. Also the Big Dog, which slept downstairs in the front hall, properly trained as a deterrent (the training for the dog cost $1,500).

Unfortunately, they also had a college age daughter with some night classes. Had being the operative word. She was abducted 7 years ago when she walked into the front door as the intruders were coming in the back.

If we're going to talk about CHANGING PEOPLE, let's start NOT with "Americans", but with MALES. The circling cars...women?? No, women are the prey, not the predators. Most aggressive acts?? Men, rarely women. Shootings? Men. (Women do shoot, generally in self defense, sometimes in response to long-term abuse.)

Maybe it's testosterone poisoning??

[pieces o nine]

Agressive males are also violent to other males, making them perceived simultaneously as a potential target by members of one gender and a potential threat by members of the other. 




re: swords.
My wepne lookes moste braue and gode in my Tudor bedde room. Ywis, yow sholde not feare, ich haue neuer hadde yt sharpened. Yt ys ful plesaunte to see but yt ben onlie for shewe.

[Sibling Chatty]

See?? My grandma was right. If boy-children would not grow up to be MEN, we'd have a MUCH better behaved world...boring as all get out, but better behaved. 

Of course, my Grandma raised 5 brothers and four sons...

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

...  If having your home broken into by violent criminals is really your worry, I'd rate having a house with a back door as a better means of defense than a handgun, personally.  ....

What, I'm supposed to leave my home so that the intruder has a free rein rifling through my stuff?

You'd rather kill someone or get yourself shot over things that would be paid for by insurance anyhow?

I've got stuff that's irreplacable myself (e.g. boxes of photos, or the crystal dish that was a wedding present to my great-grandparents), but nothing I'd value more than my own life.

Certainly, if it came down to a matter of protecting myself or my wife, I'd defend myself up to the point of killing the attacker if necessary, but for the computer or my wife's jewelry?  No way - I'd get everyone out the first chance I get and call the cops from my cell phone.

I'm simply not that noble.... and I take personal responsibility for my own safety.   Running out the back door at sounds of intrusion is not an option.

It's not a matter of nobility, it's a matter of proportionate response - I'm not willing to kill someone or risk my life (since any armed conflict situation does involve significant risk to everyone present) over my television, especially when it'll be paid for by insurance.

If you have the option to remove yourself from danger but don't, you're really just defending your stuff (or possibly some sort of "my home is my castle" ideal), not your life.

My personal opinion is that it's disproportionate to kill someone over material goods, and I believe that if you brandish a weapon at someone, you have to realize that it may end in the death of the person you're brandishing at - this is something I'm not willing to do over "stuff".

It's also my personal opinion that it's disproportionate to risk my own life over "stuff", such as by creating a conflict with a potentially armed burglar.

Yes.  I am quite capable of killing someone over my "stuff".

I do not have insurance-- I cannot afford it.  Insurance is for rich people who could probabily replace it anyway.... _{(here in the "best" country on earth..... right)}

As I said-- I did not ASK him to break into my home.  No one is forcing him to do so.  If he is killed in the process, that was his choice too.

I can live with that, no problem.

It is not that I don't value life-- I do.  I am firmly against the death penalty.  But not out of some moral or ethical standard-- that is an intensely personal decision, and should not be legislated.

No, I'm against the death penalty because the legal system is far, far from perfect.  Mistakes Happen.  I think it is an anathema to kill someone who is or may be innocent.  So, as long as the system is as it currently is (adversarial based trials, as opposed to truth-seeking outcome) then there WILL be mistakes. 

If a person is killed as result, there is no recourse-- you cannot dig him up an apologize to his corpse. 

However, if a person is incarcerated instead, and a mistake is later discovered, he can at least be let out for what is left of his life.

So, you ask, what if _I_ make a mistake and kill someone who broke into my house by mistake?

Well, I've thought about that quite a bit-- I do not intend to just start blazing away, from a silent position.  I _am_ liberal enough in that regard to announce my intention in a couple of ways.  I must load, cock and ready my pistol.  I must chamber a round in my shotgun.  Both of these sounds are quite un-mistakable (thanks to Hollywood).

If the intruder is still around after that, I'm going hunting.  When I spot him, I will announce again, that I'm armed and willing, and ask him to lie face down on the floor.

If he runs away-- fine.  I'm done.  I'll likely call the police about the incident, in case he tries a different house-- _{but I doubt they would do anything; they never do, if there is nothing TO do.  Police RE-act to circumstances.  They rarely, if ever, PRO-act.}

If the intruder makes it plain that he has made a mistake, fine.  He can leave.

If he [the intruder] lies down-- fine.  I'll call 9/11 at that point.  Together, we will wait for the police to arrive-- him facedown, me armed, pointing at the ceiling, but at the ready.

If he moves TOWARD me (or gets up aggressively, after having lay down), then and only then will I shoot.  Gun changed from pointing at the ceiling, to pointing at center-of-mass.  Finger OFF the trigger guard, into the trigger and pull-- one smooth motion.   Fire.  If shotgun, chamber next round.  Fire 2nd time, if needed.

As you may infer, I have given it a great deal of thought.

And, yes, I'm prepared to kill, if that is the only way to stop his aggression.

And yes, to defend my "stuff" as you put it-- I am willing to kill, if need be.

I learned a long time ago not to depend on others for personal safety; they will sooner or later, let you down.

I can respect that some folk would rather just leave the scene, than face down an intruder.  I can respect it, but I can not fathom or understand that sort of thinking at all.   To me, it IS quite noble-- to risk your life, fleeing, because of a personal belief and desire not to take another's life.  For there IS risk, no matter if you flee or stay.  You risk encountering a 2nd intruder, if you flee-- what then?  (they often work in pairs or more, these days)

No action is completely free of danger; all involve some level of risk. 

[Aggie]

  on insurance costs - I suspect there's a big difference between Canada and the US on this one.  Admittedly, I live in a small apartment with little of real value, but our contents coverage (includes theft) is in the neighbourhood of $20 a month (there's a bit of a discount as it's through the same insurer as our car).

------

I forgot about accidental 'invasions' - I do know a funny story about a friend's brother; the family had recently moved to a cul-de-sac in an area of the city where there's several identical cul-de-sacs, and apparently some very similar houses.  He was a bit discombobulated on a certain species of fungus and ended up going 'home' and sleeping on the couch downstairs - in the wrong house.  The homeowner basically just tossed him out on his ear.  A call to the cops would have taken care of this one as he was not a threat (but pretty confused!). 

[Griffin NoName]

Re defending my stuff.

I guess I go by the "he who has the most toys still dies"

When I was facing a possible flood, the things I decided were actually worth (sentimental, not monetary value) moving upstairs were very few. ie. when the chips are really down, I can reach a state of near zen-lie disassociation from my material life..... !!

Oddly, most of the time, this detatchment disappears, and I become more firmly re-attached. Must practice more LOL.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Re defending my stuff.

I guess I go by the "he who has the most toys still dies"

When I was facing a possible flood, the things I decided were actually worth (sentimental, not monetary value) moving upstairs were very few. ie. when the chips are really down, I can reach a state of near zen-lie disassociation from my material life..... !!

Oddly, most of the time, this detatchment disappears, and I become more firmly re-attached. Must practice more LOL.

I can relate to that.

I really don't have very good "security" at my house-- it's rented, and would be a snap to break in to.

That does not bother me much at all-- that I lock my doors on the way out says I care somewhat.  That I haven't done more to secure it more says I don't care a great deal.

No, the self-defense thing is because _I_ am at home at the time, and a person is violating my personal space/freedom.

I got an e-mail today, with regards to guns and self defense.

It was in the form of a silly list, but the best of the lot was:

I carry a gun 'cause a cop is too heavy.   <grin>

The 2nd best was:

When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away

But, you're right: we (as a people) seem to have an instinct to hang too tightly to "stuff" and too easily let go the REALLY important "things" like friendship and family ties.

*sigh*

I need to practice holding onto "stuff" less and "intangibles" more.

For, if you HAD had to flee your flooded house with ALL your stuff left behind-- you'd STILL have both your friends AND your family!  Yes?