Omniscience vs. Free will

[Griffin NoName]

Does G-d have free will?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

If god doesn't have free will then what would be the difference between him existing or not? He would be a witness of determinism, trapped in a universe he really can't change.

[Aggie]

Does god need to be able to change anything?

I am not of the opinion that God has anything like will, but then again, I am not of the opinion that God exists (or rather that the word 'exist' cannot be suitably applied to God).

I rather do tend to believe that at some point in the history of the universe, beings have/will exist that have (technological) powers to influence the universe in ways that would appear godlike to less advanced species.  I don't think we are terribly far off the necessary technology to re-create most aspects of Moshe's experience of HaShem (who does come across as a definite being in the relevant books of the Old Testament) - a cloaking device would be necessary, but that's not too far away.  I'm sure contradictory examples can be supplied, but that was my overall impression the last time I read it...


IMHO, most atheist scientists would want to see a direct contradiction of established science as proof of God, and then would either declare it bunk or try to find a scientific explanation for it. 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Does god need to be able to change anything?

If you define god as an omnipotent being (as most theists do) then he should be able to change things.
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I think we are in agreement on the plausibility of a god-like creature, but my beef is with how the canonical definition is a rational impossibility but at the same time you find believers trying to bend logic to fit their beliefs.

Personally I don't believe in the supernatural, that is, I think that all events have a rational explanation even if that explanation escape us right now, because of the state of our knowledge. Under such view a god-like creature is possible but not an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and -to top it all- omni-'benevolent' being. Such god is not only nonviable but terribly anthropocentric. 

[Aggie]

Ah, but this is a shortcoming on the behalf of narrow-minded believers, not on God's behalf. You can't hold God accountable for human shortcomings.

unless you believe all that created in his image stuff....  

For the record, I don't think even the Bible supports omni-benevolence (pure wishful thinking on the part of believers, there) - ask Job. 

[Swatopluk]

Quite selectively benevolent for sure

[Opsa]

Good points.

What confounds me is what would be the benefit to believing in predestination? Why would anyone bother to try to be good, improve themselves or change anything for the better? I thought religion was supposed to inspire people to be good. Why bother, if everything is all ready written in stone? Who makes up this stuff? Who does it possibly help?

Sorry for any untaddy content, here.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I don't think the comment is untaddy Opas, just a valid question.

My view is that the predestination argument is the consequence of the view of a deity as an absolute, ie, if god has no bounds he must know the past, the present and the future, he must have no limitations what-so-ever.

I recall now a conversation with a friend who believed in predestination and he argued that what determined our free will was our intention at the time of the action, which had a number of uncomfortable questions hanging like 'what is the intention and will of a murderer predestined to kill?'. To me the argument makes no sense in any shape or form, in fact I'd say that predestination precludes free will, period, end of story, Hitler and Pol Pot and Dick Cheney had no choice but to do the evil things they did and can't be judged guilty of anything because it wasn't possible for them to do anything else.

[stellinacadente]

I have recently came to be interested in the kabbala and one the interesting (and very complicated, beyond my means!) things is how the kabbala sees God and the world...

IN the Tree of life there are several instances of God (El, Eloim etc.), all emanating from the first Intelligence that (supposedly) created all this, Yaveh.

Now the Kabbala, in my understanding, says that Yaveh has created this instances to know himself...and creating this instaces, he created the Universe as we know it...maybe that is the omniscience as it was originally concieved before Christians got a hold on it...

just a mere though...

and my deepest apology to anyone who belongs to Judaism, for possibly butchering the Kabbala beliefes and meaning...not inteded I promise!

[Swatopluk]

There has been a case where a defendant in court (18th or 19th century) claimed innocence becasue of determinism. The judge answered that, if he committed his crime becasue of determinism, then his (the judge's) verdict and the following punishment were natuarlly also detremined, so the defendant had no right to complain.

The usual cheap excuse for predestination vs. fairness is that a 'saved' one will of course behave accordingly. The vulgar capitalist Calivinists just redefine what 'appropriate' is.