Tapes to CDs

[Griffin NoName]

My home projects are so far behind schedule I need another one to add to them.

Today's is the plan to convert old music tapes to CDs.

I don't want to use my PC or laptop. They are inconvenient.

I want to go directly from tape to CD. No Mp3s or other tricks.

What I want is one of these nifty looking devices.

Unfortunately I dislike the price, even refurbished.

Ideas anyone?

[beagle]

Nope, no ideas without using a computer I'm afraid.  If you know somebody who happened to have a cassette player AND hd/dvd recorder AND the recorder could accept analogue audio AND also be able to write CD audio CDs/tracks AND let you edit where the track boundaries were then it might be possible. Bit of a tall order though.

Why not just chuck out all your old Max Bygraves cassettes and let Qwerty recommend some iTunes Rammstein downloads instead? You know it makes sense.

[Griffin NoName]

I already chucked out the Max Bygraves.

My hd/dvd recorder will accept analogue audio. It won't do the write to CD. It all keeps coming back to only having a CD writer on the computers. I can record MiniDisc from tape no problem. Maybe it is time to look for a MiniDisc to CD-writer. Or buy a new laptop and downgrade the old one to being a CD-writer.

This all started because the CD player on my old style Cassette-Radio-Tape player bust. I realise that doesn't really explain it, but it's the long-term upgrading of all equipment that's at stake. No point replacing like with like.

Made little progress on the Woolly Ramp today.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

If you are a hardcore audiophile (with a very good ear BTW) I can understand why skip the MP3 format. For those (hopeless) cases you can encode in OGG (lossless compression); the files are bigger than mp3 but you aren't losing the frequencies above 10KHz.

OTOH if you just want to listen to said music somewhere else, I do recommend going to MP3 and getting one of the bigger hard disk players. The quality of the tapes isn't up to snuff anyway and you can avoid changing disks every 45-60 mins.

And Beagle is right, there is no way to do that without a computer. 

[Griffin NoName]

The tapes are mostly poor quality; my ear is very unsophisticated; and my main criteria is not to use the computer. I just don't have £300 for the nifty device. And there are none on E-Bay.

[beagle]

Why are you so keen on avoiding the computer? Did you have a bad experience where you put Beethoven in and got Westlife back?

[Griffin NoName]

The problem is

1. I have overlapping proects.
2. The amount of attention I can give to any one is limited.
3. Multi-tasking is beyond me.
4. My desktop is too far away.
5. My laptop is in constant use for other things.
6. Both computers have CD drive issues, normally manageable but in this context a pain.
7. The best audio equipment is in the wrong room.
8. I just want to feed the tapes in and get a CD out without having to do anything else.
9. I like refining manufacturing processes.

[Aggie]

Hmmm.... last option then:

Borrow a DVD camcorder, and jack the tape player's output into the external mic input.  Dance in front of the camera during playback to make own music videos, burned directly to onboard DVD.  Play back on DVD player.


The biggest pain (based on what I'm using for capturing mp3s) even if you use a computer to do this is manually breaking the CD into tracks automatically...  there may be software that identifies breaks between songs out there, I suppose.  But that's back to the computer, which you want to avoid.

[Griffin NoName]

Hmmm.... last option then:

Borrow a DVD camcorder, and jack the tape player's output into the external mic input.  Dance in front of the camera during playback to make own music videos, burned directly to onboard DVD.  Play back on DVD player.

....spoil the music then?

The biggest pain (based on what I'm using for capturing mp3s) even if you use a computer to do this is manually breaking the CD into tracks automatically...  there may be software that identifies breaks between songs out there, I suppose.  But that's back to the computer, which you want to avoid.

Yes there are - I think. If I use the computer.

[Sibling Chatty]

My home projects are so far behind schedule I need another one to add to them.

Today's is the plan to convert old music tapes to CDs.

I don't want to use my PC or laptop. They are inconvenient.

I want to go directly from tape to CD. No Mp3s or other tricks.

What I want is one of these nifty looking devices.

Unfortunately I dislike the price, even refurbished.

Ideas anyone?

Bundle it all together, send it to me, I take it to Harker Heights and get the keys to the Media Lab at Killeen Independent School District, kidnap Jerry, the sound guy, and make him do it all for me.

I can bribe him with food and with the promise of loans of certain parts of my wardrobe for Halloween...

[Griffin NoName]

That's a lovely offer !!!

I'd need to copy them all first though - before I let them out of my sight

[Sibling Chatty]

Jerry's 23, about 6'7" tall, goofy as a human can be, but would guard your tapes with his life.

That's 'cause Jerry's scared of me...he's NOT dumb, that boy. I can be scary!!
--------

My lunatic little brother says he'll take them from tape to DAT (digital audio tape) and clean up the noise, tighten up the sound, get the peaks and valleys nicely balanced for "the older ear" (I whacked him with my cane) and then put them on CDs...the studio rents for $225 an hour, though...

I think terrorizing Jerry would be more cost effective.

[Griffin NoName]

Can Jerry do a free collection service?

Alternatively... mmmm.... if I bought that device I yearn after maybe I could charge friends for doing conversions for them...... it would cost me less than 2 hours of your brothers time to buy the machine !!

[Griffin NoName]

Is this product worth contemplating?

http://www.adstech.com/media/mediafiles/PR-ces_InstantMusic.htm

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00067TMGA/ref=nosim/kaufenundbe00-21

[The Meromorph]

I'd say yes. Provided you have a line-out from your stereo.
Nero is decent, not quite intuitive, but decent. (I have it).

[Griffin NoName]

 

This project has been on the back burner.   (not the CD  burner )

I've discovered a handy kit that provides cables headphone socket to mic in on on laptop for £11 or a super double cassette player that comes with USB to PC/laptop plus software.

my existing Sony audio kit will do this USB trick but marks the files so they cannot be copied from PC.laptop to CD  DOH!

I am guessing the mic in option is not going to produce good sound so am tempted by that second option and yes I have all but abandoned NOT using the computer

While searching I came across this nice piece of advice:

As your tape is from the '60s, it should pre-date 'sticky shed' syndrome...............

If your tapes are affected, they need to be 'baked' in a temperature-controlled oven at low heat for several days.

Tape to oven to PC to CD  LOL

[Aphos]

I am guessing the mic in option is not going to produce good sound so am tempted by that second option and yes I have all but abandoned NOT using the computer

I did a conversion of LP's to CD's using the mic in jack.  The quality is actually fairly good.  It is as good as the speaker out jack on your sound board.  In converting tapes to CD's, the quality of the tapes is going to be your weakest link by far.  I wouldn't worry about the loss of quality on the mic jack.  Just get yourself a 1/8" stereo jack to RCA plugs cable and go straight from your mic jack to the tape player.

BTW, a shareware program called "Goldwave" is an excellent program for handling sound files.  You can record through the mic jack, edit the files if you want (including some good filters for hiss and pop) and then save them as wav files to burn to a CD.  If you want to save as MP3 files, you need to spring for an add-on to the program.

[Griffin NoName]

Thanks Aphos. Really useful info as the price differential is large on the two options.

No, I have one mp3 player but have never got into them.

[Aphos]

Thanks Aphos. Really useful info as the price differential is large on the two options.

No, I have one mp3 player but have never got into them.

MP3 files are a LOT smaller.  A wav file of an entire album (say about 40 minutes of music) would be about 600 MB, while an MP3 at the highest resolution would only be about 40 MB.  Very handy if you store your music on your computer.

If you do store it on the computer's hard drive, it is also quite handy that your entire library is right there at a moments mouse click.

[Griffin NoName]

What's the decay rate for MP3s compared to CD

[pieces o nine]

Someone else will have to give you the scientific answer, but as one who's amassed a fair amount of MP3 files for background music on the pc, I haven't noticed any decay, despite playing some of my favorites quite often over the life of one hardrive. They're still going strong after transfer to this one.

(OC, they were never the quality of some of my high-end lps, but that wasn't the goal.)

[beagle]

Depends on what you store the MP3s I think.  Memory sticks and magnetic disk drives generally fail sooner than rewritable cd/dvd/blu-ray which fail sooner than record once cd/dvd/blu-ray.
On the other hand disks are vulnerable to surface scratches, and more likely to get left in a hot car.


Of course, being digital the failure tends to be more an all or nothing thing than deterioration of records.
Don't know if MP3s are better or worse than CDs in skipping regions with incorrect checksums, but if you keep them on good quality media and copy to a new medium every three years or so you'll probably be ok.

[Griffin NoName]

..............copy to a new medium every three years or so you'll probably be ok.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!?!

That's a joke right?

This tape conversion is a once in a lifetime effort. It's predicated on my possibly living another 30 years (although this is relatively unlikely given my health). I wouldn't be bothering otherwise.

CDs are unlikely to be left anywhere hot. I have no CD player in the car. Oh I suppose I should be planning for global warming?

Struth, this is all very complex 

I just orderd a headphone socket to Mic In kit so no one had better tell me an' Aphos that's crap; Grrrrr!.

[beagle]

..............copy to a new medium every three years or so you'll probably be ok.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!?!

That's a joke right?

Nope. Nobody knows for sure as the lifetime predictions are based on "accelerated ageing tests", or "guesses" as they are sometimes known.  Unfortunately the Edwardians were a bit remiss in laying down real disks (and nobody's sure whether music hall songs with or without corruption sound any different anyway).

Some light reading (awful pun intended):

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/CD-Rs-lifetime-not-as-long-as-you-think.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R

http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/Media/Kodak.html

[Griffin NoName]

..............copy to a new medium every three years or so you'll probably be ok.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!?!

That's a joke right?

Nope. Nobody knows for sure as the lifetime predictions are based on "accelerated ageing tests", or "guesses" as they are sometimes known.  Unfortunately the Edwardians were a bit remiss in laying down real disks (and nobody's sure whether music hall songs with or without corruption sound any different anyway).

Well, hmmmm, I meant a joke in the sense that no one is going to be the slightest bit interested in my CDs or tapes of Mungo Jerry singing Blue River once I am gone.....

Of course I regularly copy all my vital files such as those to the Inland Revenue every 2 years to be on the safe side.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Another backup/storage option is cheap external hard drives.

Get a USB-to-hard drive thingy.  It should come with an appropriate power supply, too.

Then, get a couple (at least 2) cheap internal hard drives large enough to hold everything you want to store (each).

Hook'em up, one at a time with the converter.  Windoze sees'em as an external, and assigns a letter.  Copy with Windoze Explorer or My Computer. (drag & drop, basically).

!!! IMPORTANT !!!

Since it's a hard drive, Windoze will try to cache it (store pending writes in memory) --- you really need to use the "remove safely" thingy on these.  Failing to do so won't hurt your main box one bit, but it may wipe out all your carefully copied files on your external disk.

Once you've done one disk, swap in the 2nd one, rinse and repeat.  Towel dry.

Make a note to run your backups as often as you can spare files to loose-- that is, if you create new content that must not be lost more often than 30 days, backup more often.  Have more than 2 (they're cheap-- as you're buying the internal drives and using the converter-dongle thingy).

The long-term storage of electronic media is about 5 years, according to several different sources (including a photography site a close friend reads routinely).   But, in 5 years, the drive tech will have changed enough, that you'll be buying a different type of drive anyway.... likely

But, if the files are truly essential, use the externals for about 2 or 3 years at the most, and discard'em.  Buy new ones instead.

These are the simplest and easiest method of backup I've come across, bar none.

Simple and easy translates to:  you'll likely do the backup, instead of just intending to.

Ironically, what usually fails in old drives (kept in storage) is NOT the bearings or the magnetic platters.  It's the electronic boards attached to the devices themselves.... it seems that these things just "age" while exposed to the air.  I suppose you could invest in a dry nitrogen storage case...

[Griffin NoName]

I've managed to live 20 years or so with my music tapes.... they are all still playable... all I am aiming to do is make CD versions as I am phasing tapes out as I want to dump the tape players as I now have an increasing number of CD players.... basically it's just for listening to in bed.

I've never given any thought to backing up my shop bought pre-recorded music CDs. Some of them are getting on a bit now and still play fine too and I don't intend to copy them to PC in order to archive them.

Isn't this all a bit of overkill?

Yes, an offshoot of doing the copying via PC is that one can back them up, but the *topic* is (Tapes to CDs) not (music archiving)

No wonder modern life is so hard and time consuming

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I've managed to live 20 years or so with my music tapes.... they are all still playable... all I am aiming to do is make CD versions as I am phasing tapes out as I want to dump the tape players as I now have an increasing number of CD players.... basically it's just for listening to in bed.

I've never given any thought to backing up my shop bought pre-recorded music CDs. Some of them are getting on a bit now and still play fine too and I don't intend to copy them to PC in order to archive them.

Isn't this all a bit of overkill?

Yes, an offshoot of doing the copying via PC is that one can back them up, but the *topic* is (Tapes to CDs) not (music archiving)

No wonder modern life is so hard and time consuming

Well, if you ever take any of 'em into a hot car, even those factory CD's can die.

Also, the shiny side is not the most vulnerable-- not by a very, very long shot.   That side, if scratched seemingly beyond repair, can be brought back to life with some paint/scratch polish and a Dremil tool with a felt buffer.  There is the entire thickness of the polycarbonate plastic to work with, when removing scratches.

But, the label side-- the one with all the pretty graphics and paint?  THAT side is the Achilles Heel.  The inks and paints they used can slowly attack the shiny coating, rendering the CD unreadable.

For it's the thin layer of shiny foil that contains the information.  It is only "protected" by the thinnest layer of shellac or lacquer.  And in some cases, paint on top of that.

The barest hint of a scratch to the label side, and good-bye CD.  No audio player will touch it after it looses it's main directory.  There are ISO analysis programs that can recover anything not directly impacted by the scratch-- you'll loose a track or three, if it's an audio.  You'll loose more than that, if it's data/computer.

So, a backup or duplicate of your favorite CD's is not only a good idea, it's a very good idea.  Put your originals away, and play only the backups.  (and you can easily edit out or in tracks to your taste)  Then, if you scratch, mar or melt the "play" disc-- so what?  You can make another for pennies.

Unless you like paying huge $$ for Music Executives' barco loungers....?

[Griffin NoName]

Yes, I agree when it comes to computer storage - I've always kept the old Grandfather-Father-Son tradition going and had mutliple copies of everything under the sun on multiple types of media and buying fresh media religiously. My office is bursting with them.... I could probably house a few more people if I dumped some.... since the arrival of USB drives I am a bit less frantic about it, but I'm still pretty fanatical.

And I've only ever been beaten once by failing to retrieve something seemingly beyond retrieval and that was a b**gg**rd 5 1/4" floppy with a truly ancient game on it called decathlon which had a fiendish copy protection fix. It wasn't the state of the floppy, I could get around that, but I remember we had an "unfix" the "fix" at work but that was long gone..... I wasted days on that floppy with every trick known to man or beast. I cried over that floppy. I'll never get to play that game again. <sob>

Recovering lost data tracks is quite fun. It's the sort of thing I love doing. I am probably a bit weird.

But the number of Music CDs and Tapes I've ever had go dud on me is a total of 2 in all the time I've had tapes and CDs. So to me the time to do all the copying isn't worth it. I have copies of some favourite tracks but that's it. I'd rather spend the money if a favourite CD ever goes pop than spend time copying it. I guess it depends on how much one pounds ones music and whether anyone else is likely to mistreat it etc etc.

I do agree on the car tho. When I travelled a lot I only ever took copies in the car. Now I hardly travel at all, I just have my Don Giovanni in the car and listen to that. Takes me several weeks to get through the whole opera by which time I am quite happy to start it all over again.

[beagle]

I've never given any thought to backing up my shop bought pre-recorded music CDs. Some of them are getting on a bit now and still play fine too and I don't intend to copy them to PC in order to archive them.

Isn't this all a bit of overkill?

Shop bought music CDs are stamped out, rather than based on dye migration. The first is a much less reversible operation and my understanding is it is oxidation that finally kills these, but over decades (Rust never sleeps, as someone once said).

On magnetic tapes, If you've ever tried recording over a ten year old VHS tape you've probably found the rewritability has reduced and you get ghosts of the old recording. Being analogue you tend not to notice the deterioration in playback quality otherwise. A more common problem (in my experience) is tape stretching where you've stopped and started too often at the same point.

I once had a cassette left in a car where the case bent through about 30% in the heat.  Either that or a music lover got to it.

[Griffin NoName]

Shop bought music CDs are stamped out, rather than based on dye migration.

Aaaaaar!  They be bein' stamped out by all them peeple copyin' 'em as well !

On magnetic tapes, If you've ever tried recording over a ten year old VHS tape ........<snip>  A more common problem (in my experience) is tape stretching where you've stopped and started too often at the same point.

Usually about an hour in from using it for the weekly soap

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Shop bought music CDs are stamped out, rather than based on dye migration.

Aaaaaar!  They be bein' stamped out by all them peeple copyin' 'em as well !

On magnetic tapes, If you've ever tried recording over a ten year old VHS tape ........<snip>  A more common problem (in my experience) is tape stretching where you've stopped and started too often at the same point.

Usually about an hour in from using it for the weekly soap

!! Warning !! Science Content !! 

I find one of the most common issues with old magnetic media is that the glue holding the rust dries out, and the rust falls off.

No, seriously!   Magnetic media (VHS, Beta, Cassette) are based on a polyester ribbon, which in it's "native" state is more or less transparent.  Then, the actual stuff that holds the magnetic signal, (usually some form of iron compound-- rust) is very finely powdered and glued onto the polyester tape.  Then additional layers for lubrication are usually added, but these are glued on as well.

Since polyester is pretty much inert, once hardened into it's plastic state, you need glue to make other substances stick to it reliably.  And, since the tape is supposed to remain flexible, that leaves out the sort of glues that harden completely, like epoxies and acrylic cyanates (superglues).  You're left with glues that remain sticky and flexible.  But, over time, even the best of these continue to dry out, and eventually loose their sticky-ness.  Which lets the iron compound (rust) fall off of the back of the polyester tape (usually all over the insides of your playback machine-- ruining it unless cleaned out.  Rust is just conductive enough to mess up any electronics...)

VHS tapes more than 10 years old?   I wouldn't risk playback on any machine I valued even a little bit.  Same goes for cassettes.

OTOH, if it was the only copy, and I really wanted to save it, I might.  I suppose one could rent for a week, one of those "rent to buy" tape machines, then return it if it gets trashed and claim, "It's broken!".   But that would be unethical!

[beagle]

VHS tapes more than 10 years old?   I wouldn't risk playback on any machine I valued even a little bit.  Same goes for cassettes.

Don't worry, the VHS player is nearer 20. I've had my money's worth...

[Griffin NoName]

Lucky that Bishop with the new deadly sins isn't reading this topic.

I have to admit to the same sin as Beagle re VHS.

Interestingly it is only the "newer" machine that can't cope with ancient very over-endlessly-recorded tapes.

They don't make them like they used to.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Lucky that Bishop with the new deadly sins isn't reading this topic.

I have to admit to the same sin as Beagle re VHS.

Interestingly it is only the "newer" machine that can't cope with ancient very over-endlessly-recorded tapes.

They don't make them like they used to.

Boy, did you nail THAT one--truer words and all that.

The "modern" 'chines, ones made after 1996 or so, are deliberately made to be disposable.  Some are even riveted together (the innards) making it all but impossible to replace belts, felt pads, etc.

"planned obsolescence" indeed!   

[Griffin NoName]

I have found that it is worth taking out insurance on this kind of equipement. It always goes bust within the extended warranty and I've been able to constantly upgrade to better machines without paying the whole cost.

I expect they'll close that loophole...............

[Aphos]

I have found that it is worth taking out insurance on this kind of equipement. It always goes bust within the extended warranty and I've been able to constantly upgrade to better machines without paying the whole cost.

I expect they'll close that loophole...............

Hmm...

My experience is just the opposite.  If it is going to go bust, it will almost always do it within the normal warranty period.  If it makes it past that time period, it will usually last past the extended warranty.