Hand Sanitisers

[Griffin NoName]

Having always considerd that hand sanitisers are one of things we managed well without, I have finally moved into the whole spirit of life with sanitising. My son uses it before he touches his baby which even sparked a conversation about best shaped containers* etc etc.... if anyone told me ten years ago I would ever have such a conversation with my son I would have said they were barking mad.

* for the sanitiser not the baby

BUT THere IS A PrOBLeM

It is impossible to apply the sanitising stuff without first putting ones hands all over parts of the container in order to dispense from it.. usually spray of varying mist factors, and outreach. (not the gell ones obviously). So the bottle and cap and top of squirter plunger get covered with viscious violent fast-replicating bugs. So I am stuck there with sanitised hands until I replace the cap and put the sanitiser back on the shelf, by which point I am re-contaminating unless I have immersed the sanitiser in a bowl of dettol which must have been prepared with great care........
..................this is all self-defeating, expensive, time consuming and nuts. As is removing all the staples from papers and magazines and even some newspapers before the paper material itself can go in the recycle bin. Add in a meditation to calm down about it all and most of the day is gone. No time left to much else. Especially when most days also include argiung with some non-english speaking support person about the latest calamity with whatever newly purchased service or commodity is the current contender for the jynx built into most of them, a conversation which can take up to two hours (and that is quick to get through the telephone call centre push button system). I can seriously see us needing to have 36 hour days, or 48 might be easier as it is two sun cycles.

And my current sanitiser leaves my skin sticky. Yuk!

I've written a useful advert......

Banish germs with Our Healthy Days Sanitiser. You'll wonder where the bugs have gone!!!!! Can you guess where they are? Yes, you are right. All over the outside of the Sanitiser Bottle. So why not buy two bottles at once. That second one will come in handy for cleaning the one you just used. You know it makes sense.

ok. Now I am rambling. I can't sleep. Frightened of nightmares of giant staples attacking me as I try to rip them out magazines for recycling.

[Swatopluk]

The obvious solution is to use two cans of the stuff, so you can sanitise one with the other.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

As long as your hands are still wet of alcohol* touching the bottle shouldn't re-contaminate you. Truth be told, you'll get the germs a few minutes later at the door, the table... etc, etc, etc, and likely killed the good germs that helped protect you. In any case I do use the stuff if someone around has the flu or similar situations where there is a higher risk of contamination, although it's anybody's guess if it is done more for the mental health of the user than for it's advertised characteristics.


*main ingredient of most hand sanitizers

[Swatopluk]

I used the stuff when I worked in the hospital lab during my Zivildienst (alternative civilian service). I got a bit paranoid when I found out one day that the samples with the really nasty stuff where the ones without names on them (replaced with numbers for anonymity) or warning signs.

[Darlica]

Soap and water does enough germ killing for daily use for most of us.

Hand sanitizers good for moments when you have no access to soap and water or if you work with sick people who are potentially sick or extra sensitive for infections. Too much use will backfire as it will kill the good bacteria on your skin that works like a first defence line against the bad ones, it will dehydrate and take away the fat in the skin leaving it brittle and more prone to dry cracks which leave your body even more exposed.

Our immune system is usually very capable and unless someone have an illness affecting it most normal  hand transmitted bacteria won't stand a chance against it. A young individual of cause have a weaker immune system as it isn't "trained" yet but again if there isn't any underlying condition there are no reason to disinfect the world around him or her all the time.

Super resistant bacteria exist, but they aren't as common as some newspapers tend to claim as shock and horror are good sales arguments.  

Viruses are another ballgame, they are much more complicated, on one hand you have the ones that need fluid contact; mucous membrane to mucous membrane or body fluids or a way in through a wound in the skin. These are relatively easy to protect yourself against with normal hygiene and protection (during for example sex or contact with blood or other bodyfluids).
On the other hand you have the airborne viruses, tiny droplets of for example infected saliva (influenza) or dust contaminated by faeces (like the Ljungan virus) and of cause the ones transmitted by Fluid transmission between a biting insect and a human (Malaria and West Nile)

Hand sanitizers won't help much for the later group and well, they just ain't enough to protect against the first group unless combined with some type of barrier protection.
In other words unless you expect you have touched some real nastiness or need to clean a wound you don't need them, usual wet wipes are as good for washing your hands when you cant get to a bathroom... 

No immune system training as a small child ensures problems later when the child no longer can be protected 24/7 by his/her parents like when they begin at daycare/school, not to mention the psychological problems that can evolved form a childhood where everything not properly sanitized are considered dangerous!
Problems with body functions (especially common for girls and) the reason many women doesn't know what's "down there" is because it was branded a "dirty" area by their mothers.
Sex? Well, taking precaution and protecting one self and each other is good, wanting to shower your partner in bleach to let them cuddle with you -not so good.   Yes, I'm drastic but I've seen more than I'd like to of this kind of problems in my generation (the generation that grew up with the first AIDS awareness campaigns where sex=death ).

Personally I'm a recovering germophobe.
I feel dirtier after a bath in a communal swimming pool than after a day shovelling dung and soil in the garden...
For me research qualifies as therapy.

[Griffin NoName]

Viruses are another ballgame, they are much more complicated, on one hand you have the ones that need fluid contact; mucous membrane to mucous membrane or body fluids or a way in through a wound in the skin. These are relatively easy to protect yourself against with normal hygiene and protection (during for example sex or contact with blood or other bodyfluids).
On the other hand you have the airborne viruses, tiny droplets of for example infected saliva (influenza) or dust contaminated by faeces (like the Ljungan virus) and of cause the ones transmitted by Fluid transmission between a biting insect and a human (Malaria and West Nile)

Oi be h'intersted in this theory, but can ye tell me witch be on witch 'and? Oi dusn't want to be thinkin' me airborne viruses be on me rite 'and when h'actuallee they be on me left. 

[Darlica]

Did I stumble on the English language again or was it just my foot in my mouth?

[beagle]

Did I stumble on the English language again or was it just my foot in my mouth?

The English was exemplary; Griffin has been at the sherry.

[Darlica]

 

Ah, the dreaded I don't get the joke because I'm insecure of my language abilities...   

[beagle]

I think she might be turning into Howard Hughes (without the money). Or maybe with it, in which case I need to start being way more polite.

[Griffin NoName]

Did I stumble on the English language again or was it just my foot in my mouth?

As Beagle said..... I can't tell one hand from the other and have to mark them Left and Right in order to tie my shoelaces.

Did Howard Hughes drink sherry? I think not. Beagle is so Olde English......

[anthrobabe]

Dearest Griffin:
Purchase a nice pump spray sanitiser- one of the ones that is shaped like a large ink pen-complete with pocket clip- dump out hand sanitiser and rinse and clean container well- refill with vodka or other clear liquid of the adult kind (or even a nice cream sherry).
When things begin to bother you- like yucky sanitser containers-or discussions of container shape with your son-- remove sanitiser pen from pocket- spritz under tongue a couple of times- smile serenely.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Vodka is a valid sanitizer and odour remover.

...and for it's regularly prescribed use.

[Griffin NoName]

Thanks for the tip, or should I say tipple !!

[Lindorm]

Inventory number  65 65 610, Sanitizing hand towel, wet, extra large 190x220mm, is what keeps the Swedish railway network running and, whilst perhaps not squeaky clean, at least relatively presentable.

These are big wet wipes in a green foil package, standard issue to just about any railway worker since way back when, and one of those things that can be used for just about anything. They are good for wiping your hands and cleaning you off -even including lubricants, coupler grease, blood and intestinal contents of run-over elk and other more extreme stuff. They are also surprisingly good stain removers -I have used them to remove wine and coffee stains from silk ties! They also work very well for cleaning off dirty driver's desks and controller handles, removing squashed bugs from windshields and wing mirrors.

De-greasing and cleaning materials before glueing is dead easy, too. They also stop insect bites from itching, and can even be used as a decent firestarter. In some old official documents from the 1970'ies, they are even suggested to be a efficient remedy when splattered by PCB-contaminated oil (once used in large quantities in transformers, high-voltage switches and so on)

I have sometimes wondered what on earth might be in these magical wet-wipes, but reading Delta Green made me realize that perhaps it was best not to know everything, and stop wondering why that delivery guy always talked with such a strange and droning voice...

[Griffin NoName]

Excellent Lindorm.

But we are always in a no-win situation. Throw away packets and towels are good for avoiding cross-contamination but add to the rubbish mountain. I think the only answer is auto dispensers, activated by the warmth of living hands, placed every fifty yards around the globe.

[The Meromorph]

But wot will der Zombeeeees use, eh!     

An' dey carries sum nasty lickul germys yuss dey duz...

[Griffin NoName]

Ok, we have to rid the world of Zombies first........

[pieces o nine]

It is a pity that you do not live closer to my sister in law, Grif. She always carries (at least) one large decanter of hand sanitizer in her Samsonite suitcase handbag at all times. My neice knows that a gift basket of all the latest colors and scents makes the perfect and perfectly appreciated Mother's Day, Mother's Birthday, or Mother's Christmas present. But I digress.

Wherever the family roam, they know to obediently hold up their hands in supplication when arriving at the theater, museum, or restaurant, while she dispenses glops of sanitizer to all, with the gravitas and authority of the Pope distributing communion.

Sotto voce aside: No one can fathom why bottle-fed niece's immune system is so poorly developed...

Have you considered schlepping your own small bottle? You can keep the 55 gallon drum refiller at home, thus cutting down on landfill waste of consumer packaging, while still conforming to the germ-free rules.

[Griffin NoName]

I now have my own handbag sanitiser..... I use it to sanitise my handbag.

[Earthling]

Personally, I think this whole germ thing is a giant conspiracy to get people to spend huge sums of money unnecessarily on ever-more-potent soaps and soaplike soap substitutes. I carry stuff around in my mouth if my hands are occupied carrying other stuff. I don't discriminate much about what I am willing to carry this way (though I will admit that I generally don't carry items scooped from the litterboxes in this fashion). Food that falls on the floor is still food under the five second rule, though I have been known to modify my interpretation with considerations of stickiness and yumminess, and the nature of the area into which the food item in question has fallen. I firmly believe that washing/rinsing with water alone is sufficient to remove at least 95% of these alleged germs from my hands, unless the presence of some ubiquitous sticky stuff renders the use of soap necessary. (Note the subtle render/soap joke there - looks like the ol' brain still has a few functioning synapses left! Ha!)
Ahem, um, well, anyway, I'm probably the most healthiest person I know, and have been for decades. I catch a cold maybe twice in three years, I get fewer than five headaches per year, in the ten years since we moved to this house I've been laid up with flu-like symptoms exactly once, and generally feel fine health-wise. I get four or five hours of sleep most nights, clean a minimum of 24 litterboxes every day, meet the Great Unwashed Horde on a regular basis at work, and lots of other cetera like that. When I was doing the home inspections, I was just as healthy, despite being sneezed on by everyone's five-year-olds, and snuffling around in some astonishingly disgusting basements and attics - to the point where there was usually at least one day a month where I would remove all my clothing before entering my own home. Maybe your immune system is just another muscle that gets stronger with exercise - mine certainly has had its share of exercise over the years.
So anyway that's my not-particularly-well-substantiated opinion - disgusting is in the eye of the beholder. Just because someone thinks something is icky doesn't mean it's bad for you. All this typing has made me hungry - think I'll go have a dirt sandwich.

[Swatopluk]

People working in the sewers are usually extremly healthy and germ resistant...if they survive the first year. On the other end, polar explorers usually catch the cold and other nasty stuff the moment they come back (while the common cold is virtually unknown in the arctic regions).

[pieces o nine]

Personally, I think this whole germ thing is a giant conspiracy to get people to spend huge sums of money unnecessarily on ever-more-potent soaps and soaplike soap substitutes.
...

Surely you jest.    [link]
psssst: see below image for two(!) other options...



Furthermore, one can only hope that all y'all are Doing It Right!


On a personal note, no one has ever answered to my satisfaction just how long all those alcohol-poisoned little germ corpses can languish about on my skin -- a veritable bacterial Gettysburg -- before they are attacked by dead-germ-eating-other-even-more-horrible-germs.



The mind boggles.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

On a personal note, no one has ever answered to my satisfaction just how long all those alcohol-poisoned little germ corpses can languish about on my skin -- a veritable bacterial Gettysburg -- before they are attacked by dead-germ-eating-other-even-more-horrible-germs.



The mind boggles.

Sadly, what most of these idiotic products do is simply cause the various bacteria to go into cyst state: where they can literally withstand boiling water and worse.

I remember back in microbi, we studied the efficacy of various common anti-bacterial agents.

Among the list, included 70% isopropyl alcohol, 90% isopropyl, 90% ethanol, common hand soap, distilled water, tap water (which had trace chlorine), salt water and so on.

You'd swab the area the same, with each agent, then culture for bacterial growth for 3 days.

Among the results, some surprises: 

-- tap water is pretty good. 
-- distilled water is not as bad as you'd think; it doesn't *support* growth, but it doesn't inhibit it either.
-- salt water is good, if not too concentrated.
-- hand soap (like Ivory brand) is very good.
-- 70% is superior to 90% -- in every way!

This last one is interesting.  90% is simply too strong, and the bacteria quickly grow into a protective state of suspended animation, a cyst like casing.  Once the alcohol is gone, the bacteria break out of the cyst-covering and continue to grow, as if nothing happened.

At 70%, however, most of the bacteria can tolerate it well enough, for a time-- so it does not trigger the protected state. But, it is mildly toxic, and the bacteria that don't encyst, absorb a little bit of the alcohol at a time, until they absorb too much, and burst.

Which is why the 15 minute rule is just as important as the 70% rule... you have to expose the bacteria to the alcohol long enough, but not too concentrated, to destroy the cell wall.

Soap works differently than alcohol does; it directly attacks the cell membrane.  The alcohol just goes into the cell itself, eventually disrupting it.  Salt water works, by dehydrating the bacteria enough that it dies-- too strong a salt solution, and the bacteria simply goes into cyst state.   

That was fun.... (assuming my 50 year old memory-bank is trustworthy.... )

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I guess the question then is how those work against virii. 

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I guess the question then is how those work against virii. 

Depends on the virus.

Some have very hard outer coats, and can survive very high temperatures, very low, no moisture, etc.

Others are quite vulnerable to any conditions not ideal, and require fluid-to-fluid transfer as a medium.  And, the fluid cannot change it's temperature, or the virus dies, the fluid cannot evaporate much (which increases the dissolved salts) and the virus dies.  HIV is one of these (well, it's a retro-virus, so it's in a different class, but it's delicate.  Fortunately.)

Some are somewhere in-between; too harsh conditions, dead virus.  But not too harsh?  They live quite awhile, until they find favorable environment again.  Flu is one of these, unfortunately.   A sneeze expelling droplets can contain flue virus.  These can drift on the air for quite awhile, until inhaled.....  But, if they land on the counter, and dry out?  The virus dies.

Again?  This from memory... 

[Griffin NoName]

Surely hand sanitiser is a fashion not a cleansing product? - rather like those amazingly varied lip salves - I always feel under-dressed when a friend takes yet another wonderful different lip salve out of their handbags.

[Darlica]

 

I know what you mean.

[The Meromorph]

In response the the MRSA panic, HCA reviewed doctors and nurses sanitation habits between patients. They were horrified at the results.
According to their intensive research (very serious money, as well as patient lives were at stake), a 'medical hand wash' between patients was medically satisfactory, but takes a minimum of 5 minutes to do properly. a 'surgical hand wash' takes about 15 minutes, and uses particularly expensive materials as well. The timing with a 'medical hand wash' would have at least doubled or tripled the average time per patient, and posed serious skin care problems when done at such frequency.
They investigated hand sanitizers, and concluded that a medical grade hand sanitizer with skin conditioners incorporated, was more effective than a 'medical hand wash', indeed it was 95% as effective as a 'surgical hand wash', and took only 20 seconds, ten seconds of which could be done while walking to, or even talking to, the next patient. Seeing their care provider, still sanitizing their hands as they approach is also immensely reassuring to most patients.
They immediately (within a month for every facility and office) provided sanitizer dispensers (wall mounted - push with an arm or elbow while holding a hand underneath) adjacent to every patient and in every restroom.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

In response the the MRSA panic, HCA reviewed doctors and nurses sanitation habits between patients. They were horrified at the results.
According to their intensive research (very serious money, as well as patient lives were at stake), a 'medical hand wash' between patients was medically satisfactory, but takes a minimum of 5 minutes to do properly. a 'surgical hand wash' takes about 15 minutes, and uses particularly expensive materials as well. The timing with a 'medical hand wash' would have at least doubled or tripled the average time per patient, and posed serious skin care problems when done at such frequency.
They investigated hand sanitizers, and concluded that a medical grade hand sanitizer with skin conditioners incorporated, was more effective than a 'medical hand wash', indeed it was 95% as effective as a 'surgical hand wash', and took only 20 seconds, ten seconds of which could be done while walking to, or even talking to, the next patient. Seeing their care provider, still sanitizing their hands as they approach is also immensely reassuring to most patients.
They immediately (within a month for every facility and office) provided sanitizer dispensers (wall mounted - push with an arm or elbow while holding a hand underneath) adjacent to every patient and in every restroom.

Interesting.  Reference? (curious, is all..)

[The Meromorph]

I worked there for 15 years, it was an internal memo to all staff when they did it, about 2 - 3 years ago.

[Aggie]

Be thankful you can get sanitizers - we had a little scandal up here because the government wasn't sure whether or not it was appropriate to send sanitizers to some of the First Nations reserves affected by H1N1.....   

[Swatopluk]

Be thankful you can get sanitizers - we had a little scandal up here because the government wasn't sure whether or not it was appropriate to send sanitizers to some of the First Nations reserves affected by H1N1.....   

In the past the bottles would probably have contained the virus (cf. smallpox), so this counts as an improvement 

[Aggie]

Yeah, but at that time they would have had no issues sending firewater (hesitations were due to the alcohol content, as these were dry reserves).   

[Swatopluk]

Insert joke about oral vaccination

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Right, because I doubt they would use it topically (which would likely work BTW).

[Griffin NoName]

Seeing their care provider, still sanitizing their hands as they approach is also immensely reassuring to most patients.

I wonder what else would reassure patients? (Like knowing their doctor hadn't been on duty for 36 hours..... etc).

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Seeing their care provider, still sanitizing their hands as they approach is also immensely reassuring to most patients.

I wonder what else would reassure patients? (Like knowing their doctor hadn't been on duty for 36 hours..... etc).

To me?  Seeing the doctor for more than 5 seconds.  Seeing the doctor walk in, take my chart, SIT DOWN, and proceed to ostentatiously read the whole thing.  THEN, turning to me with conversion, including questions about the symptoms, etc.   Having him lean back a bit in the chair, preparatory for staying awhile.

Walking in, barely glancing at the chart, barely acknowledging that I even exist, then leaving a minute or two later?

Not reassuring....

...but certainly one of the fruits of Medicine For Profit

[Griffin NoName]

Perhaps hand sanitiser is cheaper

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

...and probably more effective... 

[Swatopluk]

Would it help, if the doctor reeked of pure chlorine? 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Bring him/her in a vat of formaldehyde!

[Griffin NoName]

In the UK we are going one better with virtual doctors (Swine Flu Helpline).