Death and Afterlife

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

In my mind both the afterlife and god are independent.

On the god side, I do not believe in the theological description: no logical entity can have the claimed 5 (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence and eternity). Where I'm agnostic is on the possibility of a bigger consciousness; if that is god then it may (or may not) exist.

The afterlife is -in my mind- a completely different animal. There is a chance that our thoughts and even our consciousness leave a shadow after our deaths. If those shadows are recycled then reincarnation may be possible or at least Jung's collective unconscious.

All of this would only be possible if (within our incomplete understanding of the physical qualities of the universe) there is an extra physical dimension that we are unable to perceive at present time.

OTOH, I tend to agree with Swato's option #2 (or a quick nirvana if you will), besides what better definition of peace than cease to exist?

In anycase, if blind faith is needed to go to the VIP afterlife, I much rather go to hell, thank you very much.

[Swatopluk]

Some people were asked (after reading Dante's Divina Commedia), whether they would prefer his heaven or his hell. Dante's hell seemed quite popular, while his vision of heaven was seen as pretty dull. Many would probably vote for limbo. One can watch the interesting show below all the time while not being foreced to participate. And all those old philosophers and other virtuous pagans would provide for interesting smalltalk (although some of them were quite big snobs while alive on Earth).

[The Meromorph]

So when my particular Dissipative Structure strays too far from Equilibrium, I don't expect it's specific Pattern to persist, even the bit you call 'Spirit' (except briefly in it's effect on other Dissipative Structures), particularly since I think that bit is 'simply'  a product of this type of Dissipative Structure.

Which is what Jaynes was really saying IMHO.   

I still contend that structures which are capable of producing perceptible phenomena when subjected to a specific type of external stimulus may have evolved to provide perception of that type of external stimulus. 

Whether they are currently to be considered vestigial is another matter.

I think I understand what you said, and...
I think I agree totally, and ...
I think Jaynes would have agreed totally, too, if he wasn't already 'dissipated  ', and...
I think Pinker would agree totally, and may be trying to prove it...

[Aggie]

Lovely language, this English...  one can say things in such a precise manner while making them near-incomprehensible.  Of course, it'd be easy to say things in a comprehensible manner, but think of the precision you'd lose...


I've pondered the (hypothetical) existence of soul-matter if you will, in the context of something that would be decay after death and be re-incorporated (reinanimated?) into other living things, similar to the way nutrients cycle through a food web.  This would be reincarnation on a base level, but would it have any significance whatsoever in normal progressions?  It may be significant if preservation happened / could be induced - with this view, a ghost would be sort of a mummified soul that has failed to decay.

Ultimately it comes back to whether life has any inherent qualities that separates it from mere chemical reactions.  If so, can those qualities be maintained separate from life itself? 

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I have to admit, reincarnation has it's merits, and as a strictly belief system, is very attractive.  It's a sort of immortality, and helps answer the question, "what's it all for, anyway?"

On the other hand, I have, for many years now, thought that our ceremonial burial of corpses to be a very barbaric and wasteful tradition.

Most states require not only a casket, but also a concrete "vault".   I think this goes back to the Egyptians, but most folks backing the "preserve the corpse" would loathe to admit that--

Yet, that Tradition also has roots in the Bible:  the "all the graves will open up" bits, in Revelations (if my memory serves).   To a literal minded person, they may well worry about missing that Grand Event, if their corpse has rotted away into nothingness.* 

*bleah*  What a complete waste of perfectly good resources!  Not to mention this silly practice requires approximate 10 feet between gravesides or more.

I've always thought what would be a far, far better use of our resources, would be to plant the body under a new tree.  Or, if there was a particularly hansom tree, plant it nearby, underneath it's limbs.   Put a marker on the tree's trunk, around it, or next to it.

Then, when you wished to remember that person, you'd go to their tree-- knowing that the tree literally had a part of them incorporated into the tree itself.    You could literally touch dear old granddad-- by touching the tree.

Long-running families would eventually have a family park-- littered with trees who's substance contained the earthly remains.

These "funeral parks" could become oasis of green, admidst the concrete streets and walls we are evermore surrounding ourselves with.

A tree is not forever, you say?  Quite true.  But a young tree will last for lifetimes.  By the time that tree is old, and falls-- who will still be alive to mourn it's passing?  Certainly no one who personally knew the person buried beneath.   And, a part of that tree could be burned in a ceremony, and the ashes placed beneath the roots of a NEW tree-- perhaps together with the ashes of someone newly deceased as well.

Then the new tree becomes the literal holder of the substance of two loved ones-- great-great-great grandma and granddaughter, together at last.

Just imagine the number of Honor Parks we could have, if we were to adopt this new Tradition.
________________________

*and totally diminishing their God's ability to re-create a corpse from nothing, and completely ignoring all those persons lost at sea-- who are basically fish "exhaust" or sea-bottom-mud.

I had a grandmother, who was seriously stressed, because a close relative of hers had been cremated.  My grandmother was quite certain that she would miss Heaven.  Seriously.  She was so stressed about it, she wasn't eating right!   I finally hit upon the "god can literally do anything god wants" theology, and reminded her of the many Christian sailors who've been lost at sea-- no grave, no corpse to "raise".  I also stressed the bit in the story about the "new bodies".  Who needs a rotten corpse, when a new body will be manifested?  She had not considered this at all-- and seemed quite mollified.  At least her eating returned to normal, and she never mentioned it again, so far as I know.   Ignorance sometimes is NOT bliss!

[Griffin NoName]

So when my particular Dissipative Structure strays too far from Equilibrium, I don't expect it's specific Pattern to persist, even the bit you call 'Spirit' (except briefly in it's effect on other Dissipative Structures), particularly since I think that bit is 'simply'  a product of this type of Dissipative Structure.

Which is what Jaynes was really saying IMHO.   

I still contend that structures which are capable of producing perceptible phenomena when subjected to a specific type of external stimulus may have evolved to provide perception of that type of external stimulus. 

Whether they are currently to be considered vestigial is another matter.

Chicken and Egg spring to mind. Closed loops. Various others but I'd just be repeating   No, I must mention another. Klein Bottle. Yes, Yes, everything leads back to Melanie Klein. She was the good breast bad breast person who perceived her own child as a client. Apologies, my brain is expanding at present.

I get the vestigial reference, but then I assume that we are chock full of vestigials. Of course, the option to consider them vestigial or not could only be tested by their removal. I think. Maybe.

The afterlife is -in my mind- a completely different animal. There is a chance that our thoughts and even our consciousness leave a shadow after our deaths. If those shadows are recycled then reincarnation may be possible or at least Jung's collective unconscious.

All of this would only be possible if (within our incomplete understanding of the physical qualities of the universe) there is an extra physical dimension that we are unable to perceive at present time.

Similar to my belief except I don't think of it as an afterlife because I don't give it a timeline.

I don't consider our actions and activities in a lifetime connects us to another self-of-self in any other life as a unit of one - - and hence set no store by any points earning system. I think I mean no recycling at least in terms of any recycling we could conceive of. I totally buy into Jung's collective unconscious but don't agree with all his ways of defining it. I assume there is a dimension which is unimaginable to us but not necessarily undiscoverable. Or indeed unusable. In fact I believe I use it* fairly often to communicate and know things.

*It may be my vestigials. Which would mean they weren't vestigial.

Oh another thought on that. I tend to think it has something to do with the brain stem.

[Aggie]

Closed loops. Various others but I'd just be repeating   No, I must mention another. Klein Bottle. Yes, Yes, everything leads back to Melanie Klein. She was the good breast bad breast person who perceived her own child as a client. Apologies, my brain is expanding at present.

Surely any consecutive mention of "bottle" and "Klein" must mean King Ralph?  

[Sibling Chatty]

I'm fairly simple-minded on this topic.

The love we show others is our legacy. I'm not in the least concerned about the meat puppet (bag of rancid cold meat/cold cuts is the phrase I usually use, much to my Mom's revulsion) or what happens to it.

Those Christians that actually READ their Bible will find that the "new and glorified body" in Heaven is sorta like---the "we can all go through the Stripper Factory and fix what we don't like" thing I extrapolated for FSM. Will 'we' become angels?? Oh, HELL no. That's clear, no matter what perversion of the book you use.

Furthermore, that text states that there will be no man and wife, no relationships among loved ones, as we know that sort of thing here...so their weirdnesses on THAT level need to chill almost as much as the ones about the 'whole body'. Like Bob said, if a body is lost at sea, or burned in a house fire, that version of God should be able to fix it.

Beyond THIS planet?? I dunno...I'll just wait and see. My time here isn't meant to be devoted to puzzling out the unpuzzleable. I have things to do and people to care for.

Let the dead bury their dead...I'll help put ashes in the ground. Kate and her cat are in my closet on the top shelf, to be joined by Michael--sooner rather than later. Doesn't freak me out. They'll go someplace where my family is, with a spot for Denise in between them. Denise's son and brother will know where. I intend to do the same (if Mom's not still alive to try to bully Dan into a 'box of rancid meat' show) and I'd like it if Dan were with me when his time comes. If not, no biggie.

Then...I LOVE surprises!! So, we'll see!!

[beagle]

...
*bleah*  What a complete waste of perfectly good resources!  Not to mention this silly practice requires approximate 10 feet between gravesides or more.

It used to be the case (at least in the UK) that after about a hundred years you could start over again and re-use the ground.  Apparently (must be all the preservatives) it takes a lot longer now.

I've always thought what would be a far, far better use of our resources, would be to plant the body under a new tree.  Or, if there was a particularly hansom tree, plant it nearby, underneath it's limbs.   Put a marker on the tree's trunk, around it, or next to it.

Then, when you wished to remember that person, you'd go to their tree-- knowing that the tree literally had a part of them incorporated into the tree itself.    You could literally touch dear old granddad-- by touching the tree.

Long-running families would eventually have a family park-- littered with trees who's substance contained the earthly remains.

Woodland burials are increasingly popular  (maybe not quite the right word...) here. In fact the whole first page of Google hits for it seemed to be in the UK.
Probably because we're all pagans and heathens  . 

[Darlica]

I used to have a firm belief that death was the end, the circle was closed, then a series of things happen to me among other the death of my maternal grandfather (F)

We had a very close bond he, my mother and I, my mother and I still share it. We sort of know, no matter the distance if something happens to the other person (very frustrating before the time of cellphones when you sometimes had to wait a whole day before you could get in touch with the person you was worried about).

I wouldn't say that F is a ghost, it's not like he haunts the house he once lived in, but sometimes we I, my mother and her hubby who doesn't believe in this sort of things at all, can feel his presence clearly, looking over your shoulder (especially when making pancakes, that man loved pancakes ) I also have a feeling he watches over the house when it's empty.

Now days I don't know what I believe, I tend to lean towards reincarnation, where some (perhaps older souls) get possibility to choose if they want to hang around watching out of their family a while before they move on and others get reborn more or less immediately after their death.

[Swatopluk]

The Vikings were more practical about people lost at sea. The goddess Ran went out every night in her boat with a big net to fish them out. Although they would not go to Valhalla, the goddess entertained her own court for them. The cuisine was likely superior to that provided by Hel (and Hel's personnel was notorious for being slow, not to say lazy).

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I've always thought what would be a far, far better use of our resources, would be to plant the body under a new tree.  Or, if there was a particularly hansom tree, plant it nearby, underneath it's limbs.   Put a marker on the tree's trunk, around it, or next to it.

Then, when you wished to remember that person, you'd go to their tree-- knowing that the tree literally had a part of them incorporated into the tree itself.    You could literally touch dear old granddad-- by touching the tree.

Or, to remember the person you could make paper/furniture out of that tree.

Now that I think of it you could skip that step and use the bones for the furniture, and the skull as a cup*...
---
*actually a part of me thinks is a cool idea:

- [shock] "What are you doing?!"
- [lifting the skull for a toast] "I'm just having a drink with my dad..."
---
Or perhaps it's a bit creepy? 
/

[Aggie]

some (perhaps older souls) get possibility to choose if they want to hang around watching out of their family a while before they move on and others get reborn more or less immediately after their death. 

If I had to pick - that's my pick, particularly if I could provide subtle assistance in any way.

Now that I think of it you could skip that step and use the bones for the furniture, and the skull as a cup*...
---
*actually a part of me thinks is a cool idea:

- [shock] "What are you doing?!"
- [lifting the skull for a toast] "I'm just having a drink with my dad..."
---
Or perhaps it's a bit creepy? 
/

I've thought about just requesting that my skull be cleaned and cast in some kind of plastic resin.  Hey, they keep ashes on the mantle, why not Grandpa's head?  Good for Halloween, too...

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Something like this?

[Aggie]

Maybe a truncated cube.  That looks so fortune-telleresque.