Death and Afterlife

[beagle]

MODIFIED TO ADD ALL OF BOB"S ANSWERS...

one: Do you worry about your mortality--aging, memory issues, etc? NOT afterlife issues, just end of life issues.

Yes-- the loss of mental function.  To me, dying "gracefully" means your mind is good until the end, or just before.   Since I'm a rationalist, to me, all else is vanity.  Smiley

two: About those afterlife issues? Whadda ya think?

I have not drawn a definitive conclusion.

However, over the past 3 years conversing with various sorts, including zealots of several stripes, I have become a "hard atheist" with regards to the Traditional God.  (whatever flavor-- doesn't matter-- don't believe It/Him/Her exists as Advertised).

I think that god, if god exists, is nothing like what people claim or imagine.   The evidence is just not supportive of their claims.

On the other hand?  What if it IS a test?  But, what if the fundie-zealots have it exactly backwards?  What if the test, is for rationalism?  And that god, being ultimately rational, is interested in weeding out rational minds, for Interesting Discourse.   But, what of the fanatical-fundies?  God, being ultimately rational, has a place for them, too:  yes, it's crassly furnished in gold leaf, with marble, yada-yada-yada.  Harps issued to each at the door.... Roll Eyes

Bottom line:  all humans (barring the unusual specimen) demonstrate at least the capacity for rational thinking.

If humans are even a remote reflection of the Ultimate Creator (god--duuh! Smiley ) then that Being is rational as well, yes?

If so-- the only rational "conclusion" from where I'm sitting, is:  "I do not know.  I am awaiting more information."

Once we die-- if there is an afterlife, I think that "more information" would be available in abundance, yes?   At the very least, what IS and what IS NOT would be apparent.

At that time, then, I would attempt to draw a conclusion.

I would think that a rational being could well understand that, and not hold it against me that I waited until I was dead....

many: Your stance on assisted dying/euthenasia/mercy killing--whatever ya wannacall it?

I have already put plans into effect, with regards to myself.  Were I to be diagnosed with Alzheimer's, or other mentally-degrading condition, I will exit gracefully, likely by my own hand.   If I'm facing a life of increasing pain, and less and less physical function-- again, I will exit gracefully before things get out of hand.

So, obviously, I think that it ought to be a RIGHT of anyone who's mind is otherwise functional, to choose to exit gracefully.  To kill themselves with dignity, and without stigma, if you don't like euphemisms. Smiley

To quote Robert Heinlein' character, Lazarous Long, in Time Enough For Love:

"Where is my friggin suicide button?  It is supposed to be right there on the arm of my hospital chair-- I can see where it's been removed!  I want that button re-installed, pronto!"

lots: (bonus) Which would bother you more--looking old or acting old?

Acting old-- definitely.   Not a big worry about how I look.
From here, back to Beagle's original quote.

I would think that a rational being could well understand that, and not hold it against me that I waited until I was dead....

According to the quotation books Bertrand Russell is planning the same defence, so at worst you'll be in the highbrow section of Hell.

"But my dear Lord, you didn't provide enough evidence!"

Mind you he also said "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. "

I'm increasingly inclined to the view that a predisposition to religion is actually a product of evolution. After all, if you think there's some great celestial point then you're more likely to try harder, have more kids, and struggle on against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune whilst humming a happy tune.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I would think that a rational being could well understand that, and not hold it against me that I waited until I was dead....

According to the quotation books Bertrand Russell is planning the same defence, so at worst you'll be in the highbrow section of Hell.

"But my dear Lord, you didn't provide enough evidence!"

Mind you he also said "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. "

I'm increasingly inclined to the view that a predisposition to religion is actually a product of evolution. After all, if you think there's some great celestial point then you're more likely to try harder, have more kids, and struggle on against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune whilst humming a happy tune.

One of these days, I'm seriously going to have to get around to reading some of these philosophers stuff.

All I know is the random bits I soaked up in Philosophy class, back in college. 

I would probabily like Russell. 

Except, I'm more of an optimist than he, apparently.  For I do think that anyone is capable of rational thinking, if given 1/10 a chance.

I also think that in spite of our tendency for "easy" answers:  (God did that.  Do Not Question Further!)  our race has managed to achieve quite a bit of rational accomplishments.

And, for many, a nice blending of their religions philosophy with some rational thinking-- yes, I think it's quite possible to do that, and no, I don't think that would be internally inconsistent.  Doesn't have to be, at any rate.

Aaaah, I'm way off-topic, unless you consider this an addendum to my answer to question two: About those afterlife issues? Whadda ya think?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Can a mod/admin split and create a Dead & Afterlife thread, pls? This is too interesting to let it die here. 

[Sibling Chatty]

Done.

Even technophobes can learn new things!

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

What an interesting concept of a God, Bob! I could totally get into that.

I think people really would rather not think. Though once you force them to (and once they get used to stretching their minds), they seem to start to like it.

And I tend to agree--once my mind starts to go, I'd like to make my own exit please. And I plan on being the crazy silver-haired, cookie-making, cat lady until I exit stage left.

[Aggie]

I think I'm somewhat similarly aligned - ultimately agnostic in regards to the afterlife, but I functionally assume that there isn't any, so live the best way I can while I'm here. If I'm to be sent to a Badplace for that, then so be it - the God that would send me to the Badplace for not worshipping Him* is IMHO not worth worshipping just to gain admission to the Goodplace, and in any case most of the interesting people will be in the Badplace.

Note that my belief or lack of belief in an afterlife is quite independent of my living spiritual experience.


*only a male god would have that kind of ego.  And probably a small tonker. 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I think I'm somewhat similarly aligned - ultimately agnostic in regards to the afterlife, but I functionally assume that there isn't any, so live the best way I can while I'm here. If I'm to be sent to a Badplace for that, then so be it - the God that would send me to the Badplace for not worshipping Him* is IMHO not worth worshipping just to gain admission to the Goodplace, and in any case most of the interesting people will be in the Badplace.

Note that my belief or lack of belief in an afterlife is quite independent of my living spiritual experience.


*only a male god would have that kind of ego.  And probably a small tonker. 

I nearly dropped my laptop laughing!

And the Badplace might be more interesting anyway. Think of all the intelligent people down there! (And I have no doubt Mark Twain has wrested the Throne of Hell away from Satan by now)

[Griffin NoName]

IF Sibling technophobe Chatty split this topic then I believe there must be an afterlife

I believe in dust to dust. Finito. Yes, we are 90% dust mites, 10% soul. Haven't figured what the soul is made out of yet. Somewhere in the sky there is not a beer factory but a dust mite factory which churns out squished moulded mounds of dust mites, implants them (usually) in a female and voila.

The dust has an afterlife. It gets recycled. Back to the great dust factory in the sky. Loses a bit on the way - old fossils (some of those are still breathing, but mostly not). The system will eventually break down as all dust becomes old fossils and the factory will have to close.

Someone should be able to do the maths (maths not math) and calculate the end of living species.

Since heaven and hell become meaningless without something in between, the certainty of the end of the world due to conversion of dust mites to old fossils proves there cannot be heaven or hell, and hence no true afterlife.

You may have read this as flippant, but it's actually sort of allegorical for my actual belief system.

[The Meromorph]

You think the Universe is a closed system then?

One of my first syntheses of a 'philosopy' was to reject both Dualism and the supremacy of Entropy. I decided that at base level, the Universe was an interaction of Energy, Syntropy, and Pattern.  Later reworking changed the term 'Syntropy' to the more widely used 'Negentropy' (I still think Syntropy was a better term  ), and the term 'Pattern' to 'System' (to convey a more dynamic concept).
Much later exposure to Ilya Prigognine's 'Dissipative Structures' led me to believe a) I was probably right and b) Prigognine was smarter and his work much more useful.   

So when my particular Dissipative Structure strays too far from Equilibrium, I don't expect it's specific Pattern to persist, even the bit you call 'Spirit' (except briefly in it's effect on other Dissipative Structures), particularly since I think that bit is 'simply'  a product of this type of Dissipative Structure.

Which is what Jaynes was really saying IMHO.   


IOW. I'm Dancing on the Wheel...   

[Bluenose]

At some sort of deep fundamental level I seriously quetion whether the thing that I call me is not simply an illusion, an emergent property of the underlying electro chemistry of my brain (and possibly other arts of my physical body).  That I feel real to me, does not ipso facto make it so.  I think therefore I may or may not be.

I am influenced to a considerable extent by Douglas Hoffstadder (spelling?) and his Eternal Golden Braid in this.  It seems to me that in his classic book he touched on something very profound about the nature of conciousness and it opened for me some completely different ways of thinking about just what we are.

What has ths to do with death and afterlife?  Well it seems to me that like all things we know about in this wonderful universe I too will have an end.  Whilst I am not too keen on some of the possible precursers to death, death itself is to me simply part of the process.  Without death there can be no renewal of life, it is in fact a good thing, if unwelcome - you know the joke - I am not scared of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens.  Afterlife? well I simply see no way that it can be real.  Once the electro chemistry of my brain stops working I will just not be here.  This is not something to be afraid of, how can one be afraid of nothing? 

So as poorly as I am at it, my aim is to make the most of what I do have.  This is not a rehersal, it's a take.  There are many things that I regret in life, opportunities I have not taken, friends I have not made.  Wel, I guess I am not perfect.  Just like everyone else.  I do hope, though, that I have helped to make some sort of a difference, that the world might be just alittle bit better that I was here.  What more can we ask for?

[Griffin NoName]

You think the Universe is a closed system then?

No. Infinite dust mite factories. Fed by infinite dust mites. Or dust mite equivalents. Can't figure out what the source is

At some sort of deep fundamental level I seriously quetion whether the thing that I call me is not simply an illusion, an emergent property of the underlying electro chemistry of my brain (and possibly other arts of my physical body).  That I feel real to me, does not ipso facto make it so.  I think therefore I may or may not be.

How I think too.

Find it particularly useful when I go to the dentist.

Sideways slide from this......... there's a theory that our memories make us who we are; since memory is subject to change (recalling a memory causes it to be altered and rewritten back to the storage system - obseriving it changes it), we are subject to constant adjustments to who we are. And as you say, it's driven by electric impulses. Makes Who Am I an odd question to ask really.

If all that is going on in this life, goodness knows what would go on if there were an afterlife. Would we become fixed* at the moment of death? Is this theoretical afterlife like some sort of Madame Tussauds?

*bothered by the cessation of the electic impulses; concerned about how the memory banks would be maintained

[Aggie]

So when my particular Dissipative Structure strays too far from Equilibrium, I don't expect it's specific Pattern to persist, even the bit you call 'Spirit' (except briefly in it's effect on other Dissipative Structures), particularly since I think that bit is 'simply'  a product of this type of Dissipative Structure.

Which is what Jaynes was really saying IMHO.   

I still contend that structures which are capable of producing perceptible phenomena when subjected to a specific type of external stimulus may have evolved to provide perception of that type of external stimulus. 

Whether they are currently to be considered vestigial is another matter.

[Swatopluk]

Well, I still hope for the day a heavenly messenger* arrives to give me the choice:
1. take part in the afterlife lottery with unknown/unknowable chances of going to heaven or hell
2. simply cease to exist (never having existed optional)
I'd vote for Option 2 and see not problem with that

*with proper identification please, it could be satanci temptation

[beagle]

2 for me too.   As far as I'm concerned Rassilon was right in identifying immortality as a curse. If it extended in the other direction I'd be around 32 billion years old by now. That's even worse than the real figure.

[anthrobabe]

what Blue said-- this is not rehersal-- it's the real deal-- the 'take'.
I agree with Aggie-- small tonker--- yep that's it.

if there is an 'afterlife' then it's probably reincarnation, I mean isn't the thought of being a spirit a sort of reincarnation, it's not like the judaeo-christian bible says we appear in heaven or hell like we are now- it talks about new stuff and new appearance--- so that is a form of reincarnation. Anyway, I wanna be a gorilla, or a chimpanzee (but prolly not an orang-they live solitary lives afterall, except for the kids who hang on mom -literally- for the 1st 8 years); and hope that no human finds me and eats me for bush meat.
provided this is sheer madness on my part-- I vote number 2 with Swato.
Or one can think like my anth prof-- he says he's not too worried because if in fact jesus comes for the big roundup, then he still gets to rule for all those years, then repent and get his head chopped off and go to the good place anyway.

And remember that in the judaeo-christina view of heaven and hell--- some really cool people are in hell.