Respect for the Aged

[The Meromorph]

Incidentally, did you know that Respect for the Aged Day is a Public Holiday in Japan?

It appears that the Hominid line evolved into recognizable proto-humans about 500,000 years ago in Africa. This line spread into the habitable parts of Europe and Asia (Remember it was in an Ice Age back then) and appears to have speciated (again) into Neanderthals in Europe and Russia, and (possibly/probably [the fossil evidence is sparse]) a slightly more gracile branch in East Asia, and a much more gracile branch (our direct ancestors) remaining in Africa, by about 100,000 years ago.

The fossil/remains evidence found so far is most abundant for Neanderthals, reasonable for the African branch, and sparse for the Asian Branch.
In all of these groups however, the level of development is approximately the same:
1 Tools are simple, crude and uniform across the whole range of all branches.
2 Population densities are low (sparse) for all branches and groups are small (<40).
3 Few people lived beyond 40 years and none beyond 45.
4 Food was mostly fruits, nuts and vegetables with some poor wild grains, and small mammals, birds and shellfish for meat. Large mammals are only a very occasional part of the diet and none of the dangerous large mammals.
5 This description persists unchanged for tens of thousands of years. No innovation. No local cultural difference, or tool differences seen
6 Most of the older skeletal evidence of the more aged specimens show definite sign of disabling illnesses recovered from, and disabling injuries (broken legs etc. well healed.
The significance of the last point is that those people who survived into 'old age' would only have been able to do so if they were actively and carefully tended to and cared for by other members of their group. What was the evolutionary driver favoring 'caring for the aged in your group'?
(Here I'm getting speculative). I believe that the limited tools they had, local knowledge, social organisation and etc, were laboriously learned by primitive brains that, while they had for sound embryological reasons grown large (larger mostly than current humans), had not yet evolved the sophisticated self organising internal structures that modern human brains have (see Pinker The Language Instinct, and The Blank Slate). The older members of the group were valuable repositories of laboriously learned knowledge and skills, and if you cared for your elders, you got a huge advantage from being able to continue to learn from them.
And so it stayed for about 50,000 years.
Then the African branch started developing the internal brain structures pre-encapsulating the mechanisms of more mental processes. (I still like the name Julian Jaynes coined for these, long before modern Cognitive Neuroscience even began discovering and documenting them - Aptic Structures). These 'Aptic Structures' underwent an explosive development over the next ten thousand years, the effect of a 'runaway explosion' type of  evolutionary driver - positive feed back.
The Aptic structures allowed better and faster learning, which allowed (finally) innovation and the development of better tools, which eventually allowed the hunting of bigger and more dangerous game, and more social cohesion, larger groups, better food, which favored those who developed better Aptic Structures, which allowed.... and on and on.
The new evolving, gracile 'Cro Magnons' spread quickly into the same ranges as Neanderthals and the Asian branch species, and by 40,000 years ago they had out-competed and eliminated the Neanderthals, by 30,000 or so years ago they had done the same to the Asian Branch, and they continued evolving and spreading their range, and developing better tools and weapons at a (comparatively) frantic pace.
And still, the elders knew more, still it made good sense to tend and care for the elderly, those precious repositories of still more knowledge and wisdom and skill.
I'm going to skip over the next 30,000 years or so .
But recently, the world has changed.
In only the last hundred years or so, with near universal literacy, and cheap printed books, there are better, cheaper and more reliable repositories of knowledge than old people.
In only the last 50 years, knowledge has started increasing so fast that now the elderly have to work hard to even understand what the younger adults take for basic.
In only the last 10 years or so, home computers, worldwide instantaneous communications and the Internet have made the locality of knowledge virtually irrelevant.

Old Farts like me and jjj and Sibling Chatty may, and I say may, earn the respect of our younger siblings, but they earn our respect, too. The yearning for the automatic respect for the aged, so clearly expressed by jjj, is now, for all of us, just that - a yearning. It no longer has the force of evolution demanding it.
And that may be a powerful evolutionary driver itself.

[Sibling Chatty]

I'm not that big on automatic respect. I never gave it, I don't expect it.

Some humans are just well mannered at any age, others aren't. I never bothered to pretend to respect anyone that didn't have some basic respect for me, as a human, too. And age wasn't any part of that.

As a well brought up Southerner, I could FAKE it, with the same civility that I was expected to show ANYONE, older, my age or anything else, because Well Brought Up Children (of any age), in my family at least, weren't going to be rude or ill mannered. Grandma or God one would thump yer fool head until your ears rang...

Respect? You can damn well earn it, whether you're the car wash guy or the Preznit of the US. I'd probably have more respect for the car wash guy, though...

[Aggie]

Incidentally, did you know that Respect for the Aged Day is a Public Holiday in Japan?

So is Children's Day.

I do grant the elderly (hoy...  I won't put a definition on 'elderly'; it's a pure subjective judgement, but in general it'd be equivalent to the term 'senior citizen') more 'automatic' respect than younger people, on behalf of the foundation their generation laid for those after it.  Everyone gets extended a bit of basic respect for being a person until they show otherwise, but I'll add some extra patience for older folks, especially if they are showing some age-related reduction in their mental faculties.

I really do enjoy using my best manners around older folks, partly to go against curmudgeonly views of 'kids these days' but mostly because they generally appreciate it more than younger people!  Small gestures can really make their moment, if not their day. And I have great fun being a shining beam of politeness and goodwill to the crankier variety of senior citizen, because they seem to be taken quite aback with it (I think this particular brand gets their kicks by provoking negative reactions to confirm their negative worldview, so I flip the tables on 'em).

I don't assume that anyone has greater knowledge simply due to age, because as Mero points out, it's just not true these days.  The wisdom of age is a funny thing - I view it as a crystallization of knowledge and I've certainly experienced the early stages of it first-hand over the last decade in myself, but now I'm also starting to see the start of the later stages in my father in the last year or two.  The later stages are.... interesting.  The early bits seem to be a limiting process that filters out some of the wilder ideals and flights of fancy of adolescence, but the later seems to be a cutting away of risk tolerance (evidence to the contrary not withstanding) and openess to new ideas.  It seems to be a rather personal process, and not age-dependant... my maternal grandmother was surfing the 'net and repairing discarded CD players at 93.

[jjj]

Respect? You can damn well earn it...

I agree to that, because I made the experience that when I perform my music and gain appreciation of the public, they turn receptive to what ever 'I gurgle'. Even the most stupid remarks are well received! Yet, most elderly's invaluable insight isn't perceived in that form by young people and that's why rock musicians are often more respected than their parents and teachers.

[Sibling Chatty]

Rock musicians respected??

Lusted after, appreciated, though of as cool or RAD or whatever the current terminology, maybe, but I'd not put money on respected. There's a difference between liking someone's music and respecting them as a person...

I appreciate the talents of a lot of people that I don't respect.

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

Looking from the view of a "young fart", it is sometimes difficult to have respect for the elderly, especially those, who are nagging all the time about the terrible youth today etc. ... Kidding a little bit here.

But, one is true, due to the differences of the generations, young people slowly lose respect for the elderly. It's because (as stated before), the elderly aren't the wisest people around anymore. Many of them are afraid of the new technologies (like my grandmother. I had to force her to use a cell phone, in order to be in touch, when needy, when grandpa died. I've spent three days nagging and teaching her how to use it, while she refused to learn) and sometimes they try to show themselves more helpless than they are. Of course that is just one part of the group.

I have been taught to have some kind of respect towards the elderly, like letting them sit down in public transport, helping them with heavy bags etc. But I'm not sure if that is what we could call "respect".

But I've learned to respect a lot of people who deserved it, no matter if young or old. When you earn my respect, you have it. But one doesn't get it automatically, just because he/she is old...

[beagle]

I remember trying to teach my granny decimal currency back in the 70s. What a nightmare. She still insisted on asking shop assistants "What's that in real money" for decades.
On the other hand she did raise three kids through the Depression and survived the Blitz. It's all a question of what criteria you award points for respect on.

[Pachyderm]

Age does get you respect in many parts of Africa, particularly the rural areas. There the elders are still the source of knowledge, but this is changing. White hair will get you automatic respect. The elders are those with the skills in local politics, village life and the bush, both for hunting and simple survival. Being Africa, most people over 60 have seen some form of conflict in their lifetime, and come through it. The wiser younger folks listen to these people, because they DID live through it, where many failed to survive.

I am polite to people older than me, as I am polite to people younger than me. Treat me well, you will get the same treatment in return. Be an ass-hat, game on.

I think today the young confuse "respect" and "fear". You see these gangs mooching around, constantly on the lookout for being "disrespected", to pick a fight.

[Alpaca]

I'm still an adolescent, so I don't have the knowledge thing down yet. The internet probably does house more information than the elderly family friend who is a professor at the dental school in California. But when I was in the hospital in seventh grade, it was much nicer to call her up and listen to her care, concern, and humanity as she told me what she thought of the results of the blood tests, than to look it up on the intertubes. And when I was in San Francisco a few weeks ago, I thoroughly enjoyed slowly helping her set up the new computer, and teaching her to use iTunes, and make a photo gallery on the web, an bookmark something in Firefox... Yes, I could tell her to just call customer support (see my post in snark), but I enjoy helping, and it's more than enough a reward to hear her tell my father how glad she is I haven't become "like other teenagers," (i.e. damn kids these days, etc.).

I respect the elderly as much as I do any other human being. I don't try to be extra polite or to "dumb things down for the old folk." I would find it disrespectful if somebody did that to me. If my friend in California needs something simplified, she'll ask. Hell, if my senile grandmother in Poland needs something, she'll ask. I realize that sometimes the elderly may need special help or consideration, and I try to be as helpful and considerate to them as to any other person. But the most respectful thing I can do, I think, is to treat every human being I know as a human being.

[anthrobabe]

I agree that respect is a two way street. Give and get.

but for so much of human history all we had were our evolving brains as repositories for our "history"- so some natural respect for the wisdom of the aged is and should be expected- they have after all
been there and done that--

I always think about the "song lines" of aboriginal Australia when I think about elders as knowledge repositiories- these "walk abouts" aren't just a wanderlust thing- they are living and participating in their hisotry- each place visited each story told or sung is something that is saved and given to the young

BTW- has anyone seen the 8-9-07 issue of the Journal of Nature? A very interesting article about how H.hablis and H.erectus might have coexisted. That is why I love science so much- it is always growing/learing/changing/evolving--not static at all!

[Opsa]

I too, show respect to older people automatically, because that's how I was raised. But respect doesn't mean swallowing whatever they say as the absolute peak of wisdom. I may take it into consideration, but I don't take anyone's word for what's best for me no matter what they look like.

I also think that there remains a bit of confusion between wisdom and knowledge. Just because my 82 year old mother doesn't want a computer doesn't mean she is stupid. As far as I can tell, she's wise enough to know she won't bother with it, so why should she have one? She's a famous phone talker from way back. She knows herself. That, to me, is a form of wisdom.

[anthrobabe]

very true that wisdom and knowledge are different things.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

This is a difficult topic because so many things have changed in the past 100 years. Survival nowadays is a very different ordeal and what was mainstream thought then today may be frowned upon.

My thoughts are on two aspects, one, to me respect should be given to any human being regardless of age, in fact I don't believe so much in earning respect but in the opposite: what someone has to do to earn my disrespect.

The other thought is regarding the knowledge/wisdom that the older folks may have. Plain knowledge is relatively easy to acquire nowadays, but the experience is still very, very valuable (check any job posting), and while some of that experience may be obsolete, the human component is always present, and if you listen carefully to the older and filter the noise, you are bound to find very interesting pieces of wisdom.

On a last note, I wanted to mention my paternal grandfather (may he rest in peace) with whom I could hardly be more opposite ideologically but from whom I learned a great deal. To me it is all a matter of learning to listen and avoid judging to get the most of it.

[The Meromorph]

This is a difficult topic because so many things have changed in the past 100 years. Survival nowadays is a very different ordeal and what was mainstream thought then today may be frowned upon.

My thoughts are on two aspects, one, to me respect should be given to any human being regardless of age, in fact I don't believe so much in earning respect but in the opposite: what someone has to do to earn my disrespect.

The other thought is regarding the knowledge/wisdom that the older folks may have. Plain knowledge is relatively easy to acquire nowadays, but the experience is still very, very valuable (check any job posting), and while some of that experience may be obsolete, the human component is always present, and if you listen carefully to the older and filter the noise, you are bound to find very interesting pieces of wisdom.

On a last note, I wanted to mention my paternal grandfather (may he rest in peace) with whom I could hardly be more opposite ideologically but from whom I learned a great deal. To me it is all a matter of learning to listen and avoid judging to get the most of it.

Well said.

[Aggie]

My thoughts are on two aspects, one, to me respect should be given to any human being regardless of age, in fact I don't believe so much in earning respect but in the opposite: what someone has to do to earn my disrespect.

*rumble*

Well, I believe in both, but I start with a default level of respect, and anyone has my basic human respect until they work at losing it.


Actually... I was thinking about what jjj had said about youth in Korea respecting their elders.  Unfortunately, the reverse is not usually true - a fair number of older men in particular take this respect as granted and unconditional, and expect younger people (women especially) to defer to their opinions without question.  The age difference can be relatively small for this to kick in - even a few years in some cases.  Having close friends outside of one's age cohort is quite uncommon, because of this.  This is a negative...  especially with the importance of technology these days.  Older folk now stand to benefit in knowledge from younger generations, as much as younger folk can benefit from their elders' wisdom.

My fiancee' was pleased, although a little surprised at first, to see that one can be friends with just about anyone here...  our friends range from a few years younger than us to decades older, with no difference in social footing.