Musical education of young generations...

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

... or the lack of it.

Today, I have confirmed something, I have been suspecting for a long time. The young generations have no knowledge of musical history at all. First of all, I have to precise, I'm not talking about the generation of fifteen-year-olds, I'm talking about my generation, the youth aged around 20.

Now, let's get to the thing that happened to me today. I have been browsing the net for some info on Frank Zappa, in order to complete my "education" on this great artist and to find some of his quotes (I love good quotes, and I've found some nice ones by Zappa). Anyway, a friend of mine was sitting beside me and asked me, who Frank Zappa was, if he was "the guy, who invented the lighter". Fortunately, he notices his mistake about the Zippo lighter right away, but it still came like a shock to me that he didn't know who Zappa was.

So I asked a few people that were sitting there with us, if they knew (there were three or four people with me at the table), and nobody did know it. So I asked them about some other of great artists, and the result was disappointing. Names like Jimi Hendrix, Syd Barrett, Jethro Tull, Janis Joplin, Dire Straits, the Doors, and other great musicians didn't even ring a bell at the majority of them. They have heard of Pink Floyd, but only the name told them something, they didn't know their music. Same thing with Led Zeppelin, although one of the people there actually knew a few songs.

I just find it really disappointing that young people are fed (mostly) mediocre "musicians" by the MTV (which is allegedly a music TV, but I think that music has disappeared from this channel a long time ago) and forget about the roots, the "real" music.

Things like that just make me angry. Less and less people know about great artists, but listen to crap that nobody will remember in a few years (or even in a few months). It's a shame.


PS: Of course, I have to admit that there are still young people, who listen to good music. I have had the opportunity to get to know young people that still know how to appreciate these old tracks. Hopefully their number will rise, but I fear the opposite.

[Aggie]

Name 10 classic artists per decade of the 30's, 40's and 50's.

I can't. Or even most more recent 'classic' artists and albums from genres outside of classic rock/alternative. I'm starting to expand my tastes, but it takes time, and I still am enjoying most other genres at a generic level rather than knowing individual artists.  I also tend to be at least 10 years behind in discovering artists...  I couldn't name 25 good alternative albums in the 90's, but I could easily list them off now. This way I get to wait to see what stands the test of time and bypass the crap - but it's also harder to catch the good less popular underground and cult stuff.

Still, it's sad that even our generation doesn't have an attention span of greater than 15 minutes or the ability to move past commercial hits, ESPECIALLY with the availability of internet radio and music downloads.  It's a good thing for rip-off artists like Jett, who can lift whole songs (AC/DC, Beatles - 'new' songs, not covers) and resell them to the oblivious.

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

The 30s, 40s, 50s could be as well considered as quite a difficult to remember musically, as there was a lack of possibilities for the musicians to actually get well-known. Some of the greatest artists of that time had trouble getting known nationwide, not even mentioning worldwide.

And then you should also consider the WWII, which had quite a lot of influence on the spreading of music in Europe.

Of course, I now see your point, and my ignorance on the music of that time, but I guess I could recall a few musicians, if I would think hard. (one name pop into my mind: John Lee "Sonny Boy" Williamson for example, don't know which decade that was though)

EDIT: and Frank Sinatra of course

[Aggie]

The 30s, 40s, 50s could be as well considered as quite a difficult to remember musically, as there was a lack of possibilities for the musicians to actually get well-known. Some of the greatest artists of that time had trouble getting known nationwide, not even mentioning worldwide.

You've got a point, but considering that each generation of musicians looks to the ones before it for influence, most of the artists in your first post could probably rattle off a good number, especially blues artists, and the 50's had plenty of very influential artists (plus, we've got teh internets now to find out about the oldies).  Anyways, I knew you'd get the point and was taking the piss a bit.

I think the fact that people our age don't know music from even a decade before their birth says more about how little people are willing to go looking on their own for new things (and how happy they are to go with what they're fed).  Contrary to that, I do like the fact that the musical generation gap is closing for those who are willing to go searching and that my kids will likely be interested in some of the same artists their grandfather listened to when he was a teen.  I'll wager that some Beatles albums at least will be around long enough for Centennial editions to be released and get back on the charts.

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

Well of course the 50s had influential artists. So did the 40s, the 30s... Hell, I could track it down like that to Mozart and even back to the Stone Age...



(btw, been digging a little in my memory and actually remembered a few names from the earlier days: The Royal Canadians, Gene Austin and Hank Snow)

Contrary to that, I do like the fact that the musical generation gap is closing for those who are willing to go searching and that my kids will likely be interested in some of the same artists their grandfather listened to when he was a teen.  I'll wager that some Beatles albums at least will be around long enough for Centennial editions to be released and get back on the charts.

Rumble on that!

[Aggie]

Well of course the 50s had influential artists. So did the 40s, the 30s... Hell, I could track it down like that to Mozart and even back to the Stone Age...

Actually, there are amazing similarities between many REAL old school forms of music... some of the ancient styles (millenia old) of traditional Korean drumming I've heard is virtually identical to local First Nations (native Canadian) traditional drumming.  Talk about roots music.

I'm going to have to check out some older artists...  I just took a run at Sinatra a while back (great!) but haven't made it much older or obscure than that.    Haven't got a feel for classical, either... there's so much breadth genre-wise that's been put out in the last 40 years that I'll be catching up forever!  Good thing most new stuff is trash. 

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

The problem with listening to old artists that are not that well-known as Sinatra is that it is very difficult to find them anywhere. I mean, if you're lucky, you can come across some old records, but finding them on CD or even in mp3 is almost impossible.

But even finding old records of those great musicians is a rarity nowadays. (especially in Eastern Europe, I guess the chances of finding some records in North America are slightly higher.)



Now considering that all civilizations came from the same ancestors, the different "styles" of traditional music have the same ancestors as well, probably the first ways of communication, drums etc. So that makes it quite logical that the traditional drummings in Canada and Korea sound similiar. Just as much as the traditional music of all the other nations. Adding the fact that there probably was a shortage on musical "instruments" some millenias ago, the music didn't have as much possibilities of development.

(but this is just an assumption, I don't have it verified anywhere and am too lazy to check it on the net)

[Bluenose]

I'm not too sure that this is really a new thing.  I'm sure that older people in ancient Rome used to bemoan the lack of knowledge of the "great artists of our youth".  In fact I seem to recall reading a quote somewhere from Pliny the Elder complaining about young people in just such a way.

I was born in 1957, and my musical education was somewhat different to my peers.  As a small child in the UK I suppose I listened to whatever was playing on the radio, I vaguely remember early Beatles hits, Cilla Black and so on.  By the time I was in the late stages of primary school (now in Australia) I was of very definite opinion that I did not like "pop" music and preferred classical.  It wasn't until the second or third year of high school that I awoke (or re-awoke) to the joys of modern music.  I still remember the song that did it, a cover version of the House of the Rising Sun by some outfit called IIRC Hot Pink.

Then I became immersed in all sorts of modern music.  Still I had some fairly atypical experiences.  My grandfather (Pop is still going strong BTW at 95) has a life long interest in recorded music.  He started out as a watchmaker and used to make gramophones.  They had a pretty good reputation for sound quality by all accounts.  Later he became a professional landscape artist (he still is) and moved on to electronic reproduction and always had the latest equipment.  Names like Quad, SME, Thorens, Tanberg, Senheisser, Amcron (Crown in the US), Harmon Kardon, B&O, JBL, Denon, Nakamichi, Duntech, Peraux were what I grew up with.  The first time I ever heard Pink Floyd I had gone with Pop to Danish HiFi in Camberwell to pick up one of their linear tracking turntables.  Dark side of the Moon was playing.  He bought a copy that afternoon from a nearby record store and it was a several years later before I had my own copy.

As a result of all this I have very wide tastes in music and like most styles from classical like Wagner, Beethoven and Mozart et al through the likes of Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, the moody Blues up to Red Hot Chili Peppers, Eskimo Joe and most of what lies in between. In fact it is easier to say what I don't like, I'm not too keen on most disco music, rap and the techno stuff, but even those are not total exclusions.

I have noticed people complaining about the younger generation during my lifetime, when I was young my parents generation used to complain because the young of today don't know anything about the great artists of the fifties.  Now we baby boomers are complaining that today's young don't know about the music of our youth.

Well, I think that this is an ongoing process and it is a good thing.  Most of the music created throughout history - and no doubt before recorded history - is rubbish, or at best only of workman like quality.  The reason most os forgotten IMHO is because it is forgettable.  Only the very few from each generation get remembered.  Mozart was the equivalent of a pop musician in his day.  We remember him because he was truly great - we have forgotten the no doubt countless people who also wrote music then that was not of the same class.

Even when we look back at the music of our youth, we tend to use rose coloured glasses.  Ever listened to one of those compilations of old 70s songs?  sure there's some good ones there, but do we really want to remember the Pushbike Song?  It was fun at the time, but let it go, please!

I have absolutely no doubt that in another thirty years today's kids will be complaining that the young of that day do not know anything about the music of the nineties and the noughties.

The one real difference is that now music is recorded and can survive to be re-discovered later in a way that has never been true before.  If the music really is worth listening to, it will be found.  Don't panic.

Sibling Bluenose

[The Meromorph]

I have a CD (re-issue) of Dr Hook. Whenever anyone (over the age of 15) hears it they love it! I get asked for a copy of the CD by my kids (in their twenties and thirties) and by their friends.  There's one track ("Making Love and Music") that I don't like much, so I usually skip it... If anyone else is present, they get very pissed at me (my kids 'dope-slap' me )

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

(btw, been digging a little in my memory and actually remembered a few names from the earlier days: The Royal Canadians, Gene Austin and Hank Snow)

Guy Lombardo!   

The problem with listening to old artists that are not that well-known as Sinatra is that it is very difficult to find them anywhere. I mean, if you're lucky, you can come across some old records, but finding them on CD or even in mp3 is almost impossible.

Don't know about that... I've got a fair bit of music from the 30s in my CD collection, and most of it's stuff that's been largely forgotten (Django Reinhardt especially deserves to be better known today!  And I still contend that Gene Crupa is the best drummer who's ever lived )... though I think I got most of it from the bargain bin at the record store just as the swing craze was going away.

As another sign of the state of music, here's a story (that may make anon sad/angry, among others): in Toronto, certain subway stations have problems with teens loitering, so they play classical music.  Today it was a selection from "Carmen" as I passed through.

[Sibling Chatty]

Gene Krupa??

Buddy Rich, baby.

Heh...

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

It depends on what type of station you listen to. I usually listen to the college station here and they plays electic and electronica, jazz, underground, and reggae and other things. My other station plays Hendrix, Lead Zep, Black Sabbath, etc, as well as today's music, some of which I really like, like Wolf Mother and A Perfect Circle.
I've never heard of a lot of those earlier artists you've mentioned, so I think I need to expand my collection a little with a trip to eBay or something.

[Aggie]

Up with the college station (http://cjsw.com/).  I've taken to recording the Friday night programs to .mp3, and it's exactly the type of mix that Kanaloa describes with a good shwack of underground hiphop and dance.  The rest of the week is a bit hit and miss, but always an enlightenment (I even heard Kinky on there!).

BBC's 6music is a good channel for a mix of classic, obscure (to me; some of what I call obscure is staple in the UK), and new stuff, and has plenty of good genre-specific shows, too.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

We have that, too, and I love it. I need to start doing that because I can never get the radio to stream properly at school, and I missed my Afternoon Electic.
Pandora Radio (an online radio) has great stuff, too, everything from the Doors (if I remember correctly) to weird, weird ones that I have NEVER heard of, despite listening to an awful lot of it.

[Swatopluk]

I can only speak about my own musical upbringing. Anything modern (=less than at least half a century old ) had no part in the music curriculum at school [and that is already some time ago]. Music education has degraded to pure theory anyway (there were even some parents suing the education ministry for turning it into applied mathematics instead of art appreciation).

I have to partially contradict the quality argument for musical survival. Some of the greatest musicians/composers of all times had to be rescued from oblivion by a few determined people.
J.S.Bach was almost completely forgotten, and it took the effort of the likes of Mendelssohn to bring him back.
On the other hand a lot of "duds" survived for no apparent reason.

Paradoxically, the first coffin nail for musical education was the introduction of affordable records and grammophones. It turned active making/performing of music to passive consumption.
Beethoven could put an ad in the papers that he needed some (lay) musicians to premiere a symphony of his (without rehearsal!)