What lovely people! can we call them nazis now?

[Swatopluk]

http://www.alternet.org/world/148016/how_to_kill_goyim_and_influence_people%3A_israeli_rabbis_defend_book%27s_shocking_religious_defense_of_killing_non-jews_%28with_video%29/

Far be it from me to paint all Jews with the broad brush or even those in the Israeli government but there are some the world would be a significantly better place without. And even hardened as I am from constant media exposure about their deeds, this article managed to get beyond the usual apathy of "They are evil? Next you will tell me that there are circumstances where water can occasionally display certain aspects of wetness."
Btw, I am of the opinion that the official High Rabbinate (or whatever it is called) is an abomination in itself. They still prevent civil marriage (so many Jews choose to travel abroad because they don't get a marriage licence from these guys or refuse to bow to their outrageous demands) and are by now also in the business of denying non-ultraorthodox Jews their birthright e.g. by declaring Jewish marriages in the US invalid, if the rabbi  conducting it does not meet their approval. Offspring of those 'invalid' marriages are considered bastards that in Israel would lack significant rights (and are often even denied citizenship despite that right is enshirned in the Israeli constitution). Likely not original intent by the founders of Israel but by now clearly perverted into a new edition of the Nuremberg laws. Add to that the volontary vice squads that try to prevent Rassenschande between Jews (esp. females) with non-Jews that terrorize some areas and Israel will sooner or later not even need foreign enemies but will self-destruct.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Oh, the irony.

Lior's enthusiasm for Shapira's tract stems from his own eliminationist attitude toward non-Jews. For example, while Lior served as the IDF's top rabbi, he instructed soldiers: "There is no such thing as civilians in wartime... A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail!" Indeed, there are only a few non-Jews whose lives Lior would demand to be spared. They are captured Palestinian militants who, as he once suggested, could be used as subjects for live human medical experiments.

I would have hoped they would've learned from the Nazis' example...

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I heard this on NPR not too long ago and I'm as speechless now as I was then. I wish to believe that we are talking of a tiny minority, and that their influence is minor, but I don't know and I'm not to hopeful about it.

[The Meromorph]

What? You thought the non-killing, non-stealing, non-false-witnessing etc. were meant to refer to not doing those things to gentiles ?

You should read the whole book...

[Griffin NoName]

...................... are by now also in the business of denying non-ultraorthodox Jews their birthright e.g. by declaring Jewish marriages in the US invalid, if the rabbi  conducting it does not meet their approval.

The actual test is whether the parents of the bride and groom, both sides, got married themselves in an orthodox synagogue. If they did not, then the couple cannot marry in an orthodox synagogue and therefore are not recognized as married because they got married elsewhere. This is true worldwide and always has been. It's like pyramid marketing

[Darlica]

It's stuff like this that makes me not believe in organised religion at all.

I've seen plenty of stuff lately that makes me think that there should be a "legal" age for becoming a part of a church or other forms of communions. And that that one probably should be set higher than all the other "leagal" ages...

People shouldn't be brought in to stuff like this other than by their own free will.

[Swatopluk]

One reason for baptizing babies is to have them on the hook before they can make an informed decision. For the same reason confirmation  shifted to lower ages. The other reason for baby baptism is of course St.Augustine's extreme theology that anyone not baptized goes to hell, including unborn that died in the womb (=> traditional reason #1 to oppose abortion; the fetus goes to hell).

[Griffin NoName]

Wasn't life hard enough without inventing religion?

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

One reason for baptizing babies is to have them on the hook before they can make an informed decision. For the same reason confirmation  shifted to lower ages. The other reason for baby baptism is of course St.Augustine's extreme theology that anyone not baptized goes to hell, including unborn that died in the womb (=> traditional reason #1 to oppose abortion; the fetus goes to hell).

Confirmation moved up. I was eighteen when I was confirmed; my mother was about eight or nine.

/pedantic

[Swatopluk]

That must be rather recent. Around here it is usually 14 for protestants and several years earlier for catholics. And I meant went down from when it was instituted to where it is now (or where it was when I was that age).
Btw, confirmation hasbecome in my experience a case of pure bribe. I know exactly 1 person that refused confirmation and thus  (I presume) had to go without the usual mountain of presents.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Presents for confirmation? I did the thing to marry (talk about bribe ).

In theory it was supposed to be done by an adult (as opposed to the 1st communion which is done as a child).

Meh, at this point I see it as a multilevel marketing scheme more than anything else.

[Swatopluk]

Well, it was so succesful that communists adopted it for their equivalent ceremonies (like the Jugendweihe in the GDR). This of course included the proper clothing.
Btw, I always found it ridiculous to see little children at communist state acts pledging stuff they could clearly not understand (normal children that age rarely use words like 'imperialist-monopolcapitalist forces'  or "cowardly provocateurs bend on the corruption* of our socialist fatherland the German Democratic Republic" in my experience).

*Zersetzung

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I got some money from an aunt, and I don't think I would have gotten anything at all if I hadn't had to stay the night at her place. Nothing from anyone else. Which is fine, since I only did it to keep my mother happy and to keep her thinking I was Catholic.

I think it's a product of Vatican II, maybe?

[pieces o nine]

Presents for confirmation? I did the thing to marry (talk about bribe ).

In theory it was supposed to be done by an adult (as opposed to the 1st communion which is done as a child).

Meh, at this point I see it as a multilevel marketing scheme more than anything else.

I knew a rather traditional Episcopalian priest who occasionally surprised and pleased me with his observations. He challenged a peer on baptizing babies and confirming elementary school children (because the latter is when "the fullness of the Holy Spirit" descends upon the person) by asking, "What part of the Holy Spirit did my children *not* receive at Baptism?"

[Swatopluk]

The grace was installed at baptism but confirmation is necessary to get the password and access to customer service.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

You mean to be able to confess the most egregious sins to the priest?

[Swatopluk]

Of course, and the licence fee has to be paid on a regular base too. Otherwise your access will be cut and you will be incommunicado.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

In or Ex?

[Swatopluk]

The Exquisition is worse than the Inquisition (the two arms of the Omnian Quisition)

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

But they Inquired with Exquisite detail...

[Swatopluk]

But the results would be more fitting for the National Enquirer

[pieces o nine]

Either way, *far* too inquisitive!

[Swatopluk]

Back to seriousness: What are the chances of the current peace talks given the circumstances?
One thing is for sure, a failure will be blamed (as usual) 100% on the 'unreasonable' Palestinians by the 'serious people'.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Nah, it will be blamed on Obama, everything is his fault, remember?


My take is that these talks have a probability of success between being hit by lightning and a Tunguska incident give or take. Israel will not stop the settlements and Abbas already said that the moment settlements resume he will walk out. Given that Netanyahu is in power with a coalition that includes the fundies from the top of this thread there is a 99.999% chance of resuming the settlements.

Talk about an empty exercise. 

[Swatopluk]

A Tunguska incident in Jersualem might me just what we need and it might swing some people if suddenly lighning struck some of the extremists out of a blue sky.

Edit: I fear the attacks on Obama would be even greater in case of success for 'selling out our allies*' and sabotaging Armageddon.

*iirc Israel has no formal treaty of alliance with the US

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

*iirc Israel has no formal treaty of alliance with the US

Yeah.  We just give'em billions of $ out of the "goodness" of our hearts, then?




In the voice of Yosemite Sam:  "Ah hates politicians, Ah really do".

Go to 3:30 in for the quote... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOUhGcsHqDM

[Swatopluk]

The US gave and gives lots of dough to lots of people of questionable character and loyalty without the need for such silly things as treaties (that would have to get past both houses of congress also).

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The Taliban, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot and Manuel Noriega are in the short list, IIRC.

[Swatopluk]

Ironically it was the red Vietnamese that made an end of Pol Pot's rule

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

While the west helped him through Thailand. 

[Swatopluk]

Hey, it's far cheaper to support someone who wants to turn back to the stone age than to bomb him there.

[Griffin NoName]

If two children squabble over a toy, one solution is to say neither can have it. Simple solutions are the best. No need for peace talks.

[Swatopluk]

That has been my solution for some time. Evacuate the whole country, then let the Chinese nuke all of it away. Turn the Temple Mount into a deep toxic lake.