Talk about genocide

[Swatopluk]

Still a lot of the blame has to be put on the Britsih for promising the same piece of land to two peoples (with no real intent to give it to either, I'd think).
But it does not help that among the founders of Israel are people that were by any reasonable definition of the term terrorists (who btw, made the car bomb what it is today).
The Arab wars against Israel on the other hand had little to do with sympathy for the Palestinians. That was imo just a pretense too.

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Edit: some more unhelpful guys: http://religiondispatches.org/violent-genocidal-anti-palestinian-rhetoric-moving-to-us/

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Beautiful...

I wonder if we are now condemned to repeat in some form the XX century. The lovely thing is that while there is some land on dispute this isn't strictly speaking a resources conflict. Those are going to be so much fun...

[Aggie]

They noted on the news tonight that Israel are creating more and more people who hate them. So what's new?

What's new is that people like myself who should be / formerly were sympathetic to them based on the history of the Jewish people are now equating them with the Nazis.

You know about the cycle of abuse, right? The abused become normalised to abusive behaviour, don't have the same social barriers about abusive behaviour, and are more prone to becoming abusers themselves? Maybe it applies to nations too?

That's a fair point.  In the case of Israel, the Holocaust has provided the ultimate horror besides which standard military action (even against civilians) pales in comparison.

I've noted that in some cases, defeated (in war) populations can come to emulate or adsorb aspects of the culture of their oppressors / attackers (I'm thinking especially of the idolization of American culture in Japan after WWII). If your people were defeated, there must be a 'secret' that empowered the victors, or so the thinking runs.  

[youtube=425,350]p-2TxIcdaOs[/youtube]

[Griffin NoName]

They noted on the news tonight that Israel are creating more and more people who hate them. So what's new?

What's new is that people like myself who should be / formerly were sympathetic to them based on the history of the Jewish people are now equating them with the Nazis.

You know about the cycle of abuse, right? The abused become normalised to abusive behaviour, don't have the same social barriers about abusive behaviour, and are more prone to becoming abusers themselves? Maybe it applies to nations too?

I'm not sure if this does hold out in Israel's case. I view Israel v. Gaza as Israel behaving defensively. The problem being that ends up seeming to be abusive (and I don't pretend to deny it is abusive). I think true single-person abusers are not being defensive when they abuse. I don't think Israel is ignorant of the damage they do, I just think their need to be defensive outguns it.

Still a lot of the blame has to be put on the Britsih for promising the same piece of land to two peoples (with no real intent to give it to either, I'd think).

The British were pretty stupid, yes. They were in creating Iraq too - except that Palestinian and Jews lived side by side quite happily until one day, suddenly, all the Jews had to flee........... to.......... Israel.

[Griffin NoName]

Sorry double post.

This is why I am probably less oposed to Israeli policy than anyone else here.


Article

"They are not screaming 'Death to the Israelis' on the streets of Paris," Cukierman said last month. "They are screaming 'Death to Jews'."

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Actually you should be more opposed, according to the article every time Israel kills civilians that fans the hatred in Europe. I'm sure that some anti-semites are your old-fashion white youths who don't have a problem burning a mosque in the same way they burn a synagogue if they haven't done it already; for them the conflict is a "validation" of their old mantra that "Jews are evil" etc. No surprises there. Others, may be Arab youths that move towards the extreme due to a perceived ignored injustice. In both cases the fact that unemployment is significantly higher among the 16-28 group in Europe doesn't help at all.

As for you considering moving to Israel, I wouldn't be so carefree about the idea, ever heard of ISIS in Syria and Iraq? What prevents them from going south to Israel? Besides, the killing of Palestinian civilians cannot be a good thing long term, it only insures more generations of hatred towards Israel, in Palestine and the rest of the middle east.

You can come to the States though, the fundies are very keen on "protecting Israel" at all costs, and the justifications for killing civilians that popped out in Israel are popping right here as well, never mind their latent antisemitism showing up here and there, right now killing Arabs is way more important than scaring Jews...

[roystonoboogie]

I am always very careful to make sure that when I criticise the government of the state of Israel, I call it the state of Israel. Despite Israel proclaiming itself a Jewish state, I am not criticising Judaism or all Jews for the actions of the Israeli government. Ditto Hamas and the Palestinian civilians in Gaza and the West Bank; and Palestinians and Muslims and/or Arabs. I could do the whole Venn diagram thing, but I don't have to.

My point about the cycle of abuse is not that abusers teach the abused how to abuse: that is not correct at all. My point is that the abused are typically already desensitised to abuse, they do not become as incensed about it as people who have no experience of abuse, therefore they have a predisposition not to recognise certain behaviours as abusive in the same way that others would.

I suspect that the culture of Israel (not Judaism, the state of Israel) is desensitised to such an extent that they do not recognise what they are doing as abuse at all. Israel has built a wall around Gaza, and it controls the flow of food, water, medicine, energy and everything else Gaza needs to survive, including the movement of people. And yet they lob high explosive ordnance into a walled civilian area from which people cannot escape? That is a rather lairy definition of 'defence' in my book.

Israel has the upper hand. It could make peace if it wanted to, because it holds most of the cards. But the evidence seems to suggest that Israel does not want to make peace, it will not concede anything to the people it holds the advantage over, and I would have to wonder why?

[Swatopluk]

The fundies need the Jews because only they can trigger the apocalypse (by building first Great Israel and then the Third Temple). The radicals on both sides see each other as the useful idiots. According to the fundies the first people the returning Jesus will slaughter ar the Jews. And the radical Israelis, who know that this is all rubbish, play the game and take the money.

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There is a project '10000 Jews to Gaza' currently in the US that is built on the belief that Israel would be more reluctant to bomb, if there were lots of Jews dispersed among the Palestinians. I am too much of a cynic to believe that. Those Jews (if tolerated by Hamas to start with) would be branded as (liberal) traitors by the rightwingers in both Israel and the US that not just could but should be killed without mercy.

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Traditional anti-semitism is rarely on public display in Germany and gets condemned instantly by the public. Open anti-semitism is at the moment almost completely a young Arab thing and there are heavy complaints that these guys are not treated the same way as Germans would (i.e. they get a free pass in order to avoid charges of anti-Islamism or nativism (=anti foreigner)).

[Griffin NoName]

I don't think the far right in France is all Arabs.

Synagogues are often locked in the UK, and when services are on have two or three heavies on the door, who inspect you before they allow you in. Somtimes you even need tickets. I don't think this is due to any muslim influence, ir's been going on much much longer than that......... the first time I remember it was in the mid-1980's. I therefore have experienced repeated anti-semitism in this way, never mind other incidents which have also happened directly to me over my lifetime. It's not for me something that is just something to talk about or debate. It's active. It affects me directly.

I don't think you, any of you, quite get quite what Israel represents for me. Jews have often been welcomed into other nations, integrated, used, tolerated, etc. only for some years later to become the baddies on the pretext of causing the harvest to fail etc etc and had to flee in terror. Even were I to go to the US as it seems now to be big on Isreal being the goodies, it would never feel safe to me because it might change like so many other countries have over hundreds of years. Israel is the only place I would not get chucked out of for being Jewish. That is my reasoning/emotional take. May be full of logical errors of course.

Yes, I do think fanning the flames of hatred is insane. I've just been focusing on the why they are doing it. I was never a fan of invading Iraq for that very reason (amongst others).

Roy, I think you are probably focusing on one group or type of abuser? The people I know who have been seriously badly abused in childhood are over-sensitised (absolutely not desensitised), terrified, and abusing someone else not something they would/could ever do.

Swato, I would expect Germany to be rather different to the rest of Europe on this topic.

[roystonoboogie]

Roy, I think you are probably focusing on one group or type of abuser? The people I know who have been seriously badly abused in childhood are over-sensitised (absolutely not desensitised), terrified, and abusing someone else not something they would/could ever do.

Griffin, unfortunately your experience does not generalise, hence my deliberate choice of words about 'typically' and 'predisposition to'. People know they have been abused, and have been questioned and have identified the issue, are generally over-sensitised (possibly by the experience of examining it). Those who think the abuse was just part of growing up tend to be desensitised to it because they think it's normal (see Dawkins, The God Delusion, he's a victim but also an apologist). This is not a small issue: I work supporting people who have been abused in childhood and adulthood, and they exhibit both attributional styles.

[Swatopluk]

There is homegrown anti-semitism in Germany too and Jewish institutions need and get extra protection, it's just that to openly express it is not considered tolerable behaviour. In Austria anti-semitism is allowed as long as it is not called that ('I am no anti-semite, I just can't stand them Jews!').

[Griffin NoName]

Roy, I've sent you a PM as I don't want to debate further on this in an open forum.


Interesting (to me) articles:

Please don't tell me what I should think about Israel

The Guardian view on Gaza and the rise of antisemitism : Attacks on synagogues, Jewish shops and individuals – even children – are rising. They are inexcusable.

[Aggie]

Israel is the only place I would not get chucked out of for being Jewish. That is my reasoning/emotional take. May be full of logical errors of course.

I'm not sure about that; try Canada? There are certainly racist jokes against the Jews that circulate here, but they're almost exclusively about Jewish people being tight-fisted about money (and from what I can tell, quite similar to jokes about the Scots on your side of the pond).  The nastiest jokes get directed at First Nations people, who face by far the worst discrimination of any group. Mind you, religion in Lotus Land is mostly a non-issue; you're more likely to be ostracized or treated as potentially rabid for being a Christian here than anything else*.

You'd be singled out for being English (not in a negative way), certainly, but Jewish?  Not really. I can't speak for the rest of the nation, but the left coast is pretty lax when it comes to religious matters. Ethnic backgrounds are treated as a curiosity and a badge of pride if you have a reasonably large genetic heritage from any one group; most white people here are mutts.

_{*I'm trying out internet dating and the vast majority of profiles are self-declared as "Non-Religious"; the Christians stand out mostly because they make it very clear they don't want to date non-Christians.  There are more new-agers and Other Religion people than Christians.}

[Griffin NoName]

Israel is the only place I would not get chucked out of for being Jewish. That is my reasoning/emotional take. May be full of logical errors of course.

I'm not sure about that; try Canada? There are certainly racist jokes against the Jews that circulate here, but they're almost exclusively about Jewish people being cheap (and from what I can tell, quite similar to jokes about the Scots on your side of the pond).  Mind you, religion in Lotus Land is mostly a non-issue; you're more likely to be ostracized or treated as potentially rabid for being a Christian here than anything else*.

You'd be singled out for being English (not in a negative way), certainly, but Jewish?  Not really. I can't speak for the rest of the nation, but the left coast is pretty lax when it comes to religious matters. Ethnic backgrounds are treated as a curiosity and a badge of pride if you have a reasonably large genetic heritage from any one group; most white people here are mutts.

_{*I'm trying out internet dating and the vast majority of profiles are self-declared as "Non-Religious"; the Christians stand out mostly because they make it very clear they don't want to date non-Christians.  There are more new-agers and Other Religion people than Christians.}

Aggie, you have missed my point. Countries change.

Actually you should be more opposed, according to the article every time Israel kills civilians that fans the hatred in Europe.
..................
As for you considering moving to Israel, I wouldn't be so carefree about the idea, ever heard of ISIS in Syria and Iraq?

I sort of coverered your first point in an earlier post. I'm not backing Israeli policy in Gaza, but I totally get why they see it as necessary and I could see how I might too. As for moving there, I don't intend to get chucked out of Britain, but it has happened to the Jews here before. It's a base I need to feel I have covered. I stand by what I said. I might choose Israel because they would not (presumably) dispel someone for being Jewish. This is the only country one can be sure of (presumably) for the long haul.

I don't know what any of you might have experienced as being singled out for something and discriminated against* in a variety of ways, but I sort of feel none of you are hearing me properly. Maybe I am not explaining well enough.

*I mean like race, not like being disabled - I've experienced horrendous discrimination due to disability but there's no country for the disabled

[Aggie]

I did get your point, but in this part of the colony there isn't a historical basis for disliking the Jewish people, as there is in Europe.  I can't see how any real anti-semitism would gain a foothold here, especially towards Jews who can 'pass' as Caucasian.

Racism gets directed at people based on behavioral differences, appearance and accent, not ethnicity per se. Those are certainly markers of ethnicity, but it's not one's genetic background or belief system that provokes racism.

The US has a pretty stiff sense of identity and divides between 'American' and 'Other'; you need to paint yourself Red, White and Blue to cover your roots. The more progressive parts of Canada think of 'Canadian' as a varnish that lets you see the grain underneath.  It's not universal, especially in small towns, but to be completely frank there's a list of other ethnic groups that draw ire far ahead of the Jews.

Insular communities do tend to create disgruntlement, so I can see that applying to a mass-migration of Jews, especially if they were non-English speakers, but I don't see a basis for a flipover to anti-Jewish sentiment happening in my area, and I don't see it as being relevant to an integrated individual (the same applies to being gay here, for the most part).

I don't know what any of you might have experienced as being singled out for something and discriminated against* in a variety of ways, but I sort of feel none of you are hearing me properly. Maybe I am not explaining well enough.

*I mean like race, not like being disabled - I've experienced horrendous discrimination due to disability but there's no country for the disabled

Not in my own country, no.  I do see where you're coming from, and how your experience of discrimination has lead to the way you feel.  Feelings of not being 'okay' are deep-rooted and hard to express, as you can personally attest to after hearing me go on at length about my own issues.

You've made some valid points, based in your own personal feelings, about why this isn't exclusively an Israeli political issue.