World View of United States

[Opsa]

Last night I was watching BBC news and was somewhat taken aback to hear Katty Kay generalizing Americans as gun-toting maniacs, even though I think she said that something like 44% of Americans own guns. I know that's a large percent, but it is not all of us. I was saddened to think that my country was being slammed as being full of gun-wild ye-haws. If 44% of us were Hindu would that make us seen as all Hindu? And what about the gun owners who agree that we need tougher gun laws? They do exist.

I'll admit, there is a lot of utter carp going on here, but there are wonderful things about my country, too. It is a beautiful land. There are good things produced here. We have lotsa art and great writing and design. Technically we can oppose our government without being thrown in jail. Women can get an education. The people here don't seem any more good or bad than anyplace else, as far as I can see.

It made me feel a bit insulted. (But not so much that I went and bought an AKA47 at the convenience store to shoot the TV.)

[Swatopluk]

Well, that shows that you are not a true patriot. Otherwise you would not even have thought of using a commie instead of a tommy-gun.

[Griffin NoName]

I think it's usual for the minority (but it's only just a minority) to give the majority a bad name, but 44% is quite shocking to me. Remember, even our police aren't armed (mostly) here and we have a law of reasonable force where people have been locked up for harming their burglar (not sure of they didn't change that a bit recently?) so it's way outside our comfort zone. Not that I approve of generalising.

[pieces o nine]

Swato, your joke made me laugh.

Opsa, I agree with you. We are not all crazed vigilantes, armed to the teeth, even though that is what our movies, Rappers, religious leaders, politicians, and media focus on. What is the rest of the world supposed to think?

I will add that I'm very happy to be celebrating inauguration weekend in my own place, with no FauxNews-watching NRA patriots and their fully-stocked gun locker (the size of some people's pantries) in sight!

-pieces o' unarmed and no intentions of changing that nine

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

[rant]
Opas, since I've been living in this country I've met plenty of reasonable, nice and caring people, and being from a country that not too long ago was considered a nest of thiefs, drug dealers and terrorists, I have a low tolerance for broad generalizations, but, while not every American is a gun crazed yahoo, we have to admit that we have a problem with guns, and a truly serious at that.

The other day while listening to the radio I heard a claim from Gabby Gifford's husband and it sounded so outlandish that I had to dig up the actual numbers. It turned out that his claim wasn't completely accurate but disturbing enough to put the actual stuff in my FB page:

In case it isn't legible enough, that is, from the 26 richest countries in the world, 87% of all children killed were Americans. If that isn't a problem I honestly can't figure out what is anymore, if there is something every f$%^& body talks about is the future and the children, but when it comes to firearms, it seems that children aren't so important after all.

I'm sorry, and I don't want to generalize individual opinions and positions, but, to me, this country is sick, when is more important to have assault weapons around than protect school children, we have a problem, when almost half of the people has firearms, we have a problem, when half of the people in the state I live has concealed-carry permits, there is a problem, and when the laws of the state allow the incredibly moronic stand-your-ground law that fundamentally gives a defense path for murder, we do have a f%^&ing serious problem in this country.

Yes, I applaud NY state for passing some serious laws but what good does it make when you only have to drive less than an hour to legally get what you couldn't in NY? When at least 25% (and I wouldn't be surprised if the true number were >50%) think that having four shootings in a year in which 20 elementary kids died with several bullets from an assault weapon in just one of them, is a fair price to pay to keep their incredibly moronic interpretation of the 2nd amendment, there is a incredibly serious problem in this country.
[/rant]

Sorry but I had that one on my chest for a while.

[Swatopluk]

In one point the 'pro-gunners' are correct. It's not primarily the guns that are the problem. They just refuse to face the logical consequences: If there are guns, there has to be regulation and a zero tolerance policy for violations. I would not want the Swiss model in Germany (for other reasons) but it is pretty close to what the US constitution* in its 2nd amendment had in mind: universally armed citizens but on a very short leash as far as the use is concerned.

*resp. the people that drafted it

[Sibling DavidH]

Problem is, the perception often has little to do with the reality.  For all it matters, you might have only 4% owning guns, but they are constantly appearing on European TV.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

...  And what about the gun owners who agree that we need tougher gun laws? They do exist.

Me.  I'm one of those:  I think we need to shift to the "car ownership" model of gun ownership:  to own a car, you must register said ownership with your state (car title).  To drive it, you must pass a test, get a license and carry liability insurance.  To transfer ownership of the car, you must inform the state (title transfer).  If your car is stolen?  You must file a record with your local police if you wish to be paid by most insurances.  Etc.

And there must be teeth in this:  in the form of liability/culpability penalties-- the registered owner of record is responsible for accidental discharges, and/or guns used in the commission of a crime (any crime(s)).   The only acceptable excuse, would be either a registered title transfer, or a formal police report/notification of theft [of the gun(s)].

This would result in responsible owners (such as myself) locking or otherwise rendering safe, the firearms in question from casual access by minors.   There are modern gun safes that open with a simple thumbprint in an instant, for those paranoid types who feel they must have one by their bedside-- one of the nice benefits of such a safe, is an intruder cannot get to your gun(s) first...

.... meh.

These simple changes in the current laws would go a very long way to prevent accidental shootings of children, and would probably help somewhat in suicide-shootings too-- if you had to hunt for the safe key, or remember a 10 digit code to open your main gun safe, you might just think twice (or maybe not--I have no clue what is going through the mind of a suicide person).   

Another side effect:  casual burglars would not be able to steal guns so easily (an all too common thing, unfortunately-- the underground illegal gun market is at least as big as the underground illegal drug market in the US... according to some folk's estimates).

---------------------------

We're not going to change our image of Anarchist-Cowboys anytime soon; that image is too deeply ingrained in our history and our culture.    But we can do reasonable things to mitigate it. 

Will we? 

No.  That's my pessimistic prediction:  after the gunsmoke settles?   Nothing serious will have changed:  too many politician-hogs feeding at the lucrative trough offered up by the gun makers.    And why not?  Anytime there's a gun-related crisis?  The price of guns are ... effectively doubled for the next 3 to 6 months-- seriously.

Manufacturing a gun is like selling diamonds:  the makers can sell these things for 3, 4 or even 5 times (or more) what it cost them to create....!   Few other industries have such a high margin of profit.  Of course they have money to burn buying politician-hogs.   I suspect they love it when there's a gun-related "crisis".   They cry all the way to the bank deposit slot...

.... meh. 


As usual:  education is the only real cure for this.   Educating the up-and-coming generation is our only real hope here.  Such that, by the time they become adults, they haven't bought into the gun culture.

[pieces o nine]

^ That's the comparison model I like to use, Bob. I also have hopes for education, but positive change -- as in so many other problem areas -- will require positive peer pressure in order to overcome those growing up in homes with guns, guns, and more guns, and a constantly preached gospel of "second amendment rights" (with few responsibilities).

In the ocean o'sand there is a strong (albeit romanticized) hive-mind memory of good old days of cowboys and Indians, commonplace street duels, and a rough-and-tumble frontier justice. It bears noting that in areas where the gun reigned supreme in closest approximation to the Hollywood ideal, law-abiding citizens finally decided that they had had ENOUGH. Their solution was not to arm every man, woman and child with as much firepower as each could physically carry, but to pass local legislation severely curtailing the carrying of weapons (both guns and knives) in public places. The outspoken "personal rights" types fought this to the bitter end, but ultimately the "rights" of the greater populace prevailed. (Anyone in these hyeah parts ever hear tell of a feller named Wyatt Earp?)

[Opsa]

I don't own any guns either, and hope I never get so paranoid that I think I have to own a gun. That's just too weird a state of mind for me.

I do know sportsmen that own guns and hunt, and I can respect that. We are a big country with lots of hunting grounds, and I suspect a good deal of the guns out there are not automatic weapons, but sporting rifles for hobby target shooting and the occasional hunt.

I have a problem with the sort of person who will not accept responsibility for gun ownership. I respect Bob's responsible attitude. I keep hearing people on the TV saying that closing the gun show loophole (where any psycho can buy a gun at a gun show without any wait period or background check) would violate their right to bear arms, and that criminals would just obtain guns illegally. They never address that the gun show loophole makes it a snap for criminals and unstable people to get guns. Make it hard for them! Make them have to break the law to get a gun, it'll slow them down and make it more expensive. Criminals are lazy, that's why they do crimes instead of getting regular jobs. Why make it easy for them?

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Absolutely, Opsa-- close the gun show loophole, as in retroactively-yesterday.

One of the things that really chaps my chain about gun shows?  Is that it takes away legitimate business from legitimate brick-and-mortar gun stores-- who do have to participate in the registration process-- I know, as I have personally purchased used guns from such stores-- I had to register, and submit a form for a background check, etc.   One for each firearm too--no blanket-covers-everything.  I know that because I witnessed the purchase of three guns once--separate forms for each firearm were required (this was a lovely matched set of shotguns--sold as a set, but registered individually as required).

I'd also close the private sales loophole as well-- by instilling legal liability for whatever a given gun is used for, to the owner of registry.   If said owner is dead?   The responsibility falls to his inheritors--behooving them to register the transfer or destruction of inherited firearms.    There is always donation to various charities, who would be happy to register the donations, and subsequent auctions I have no doubt at all-- all nice and aboveboard.

I'd also institute, right now, a national bounty on voluntary turn-in of guns--regardless of their condition--turning them over to a local authority of some sort, to be disposed of, or properly re-purposed as the police-agency sees fit, and a bounty paid to the person(s) donating.   If the gun(s) are registered, the donators would have to show they are the legitimate owner-- this would avoid creating an instant market for stealing guns just to get the bounty (although there might be some merit in that one, in certain areas.... ).

We can live responsibly with many firearms in our midst.  But we must all act like.... adults.    meh. 

Obviously, that is simply beyond the capabilities of ... certain people.  meh²

[Swatopluk]

The NRA is currently furious about highly successful gun buy-backs and tries to have police forces forced to sell those bought back guns to the highest bidder and make it a crime to destroy them (as the sellers explicitly wish).

And to think that there are several groups that have split form the NRA because the organisation is not radical enough....

As far as shops vs. gun shows is concerned, Obama/Biden have gathered support from Walmart. The mega company would heavily benefit from the gun shows losing attractivity because it is the largest non mobile gun and ammo retailer.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Yes--but Wal Mart no longer sells (and hasn't for a long time) handguns-- it's shotguns and light rifles only.  But ammo?  You betcha.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Closing loopholes for illegal weapons is something strongly fought by the NRA, and the reason is simple: in times of peace guns have a very long shelf life, it isn't as if the gun would stop working after a year of being purchased, so gun manufacturers have a limited market, more so because there aren't that many repeat sales from normal people, which leaves only two markets, the crazy paranoid types that are expecting a commie/feds/mexicans/aliens invading the country and that feel the need to have a large stock in their basements, and the black market for criminals. Considering that even nut cases are limited, the only ongoing market is the criminal one, therefore, closing loopholes would cripple their retail sales.

it's shotguns and light rifles only.

I'm not so sure, for black friday I saw among the Walmart offers a SIG rifle (for ~$800 IIRC), not exactly your Diana pellet gun if you ask me.

[Aggie]

Don't forget the export market.  Canada may be a net exporter of marijuana and heavy crude oil, but we a net importer of illegal firearms, especially hand guns.  Our own rules are sufficiently tight that it makes smuggled US handguns rather attractive to criminal types. They're cheaper and easier to obtain than the legal equivalent. Your lax gun laws don't just affect the US.  I wouldn't be surprised if even more guns head south across the US border.